Brutus 10 BYO Plans Changes?

[Namako]

TrickyDick... what you need is a Man-o-Meter... I mean, a manometer

http://www.amazon.com/UEi-Instruments-EM151-Electronic-Manometer/dp/B000OUV2D0
http://www.amazon.com/Fieldpiece-SDMN5-Dual-Port-Manometer/dp/B000UV0F9U/ref=sr_1_6?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1367188222&sr=1-6&keywords=manometer

I have the later one, and it worked GREAT in helping me to adjust my Honeywell VR8200A Continuous Pilot gas valves!! 11 in. WC is well within their "sweet spot"!!

 

[TrickyDick]

TrickyDick... what you need is a Man-o-Meter... I mean, a manometer

http://www.amazon.com/UEi-Instruments-EM151-Electronic-Manometer/dp/B000OUV2D0
http://www.amazon.com/Fieldpiece-SDMN5-Dual-Port-Manometer/dp/B000UV0F9U/ref=sr_1_6?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1367188222&sr=1-6&keywords=manometer

I have the later one, and it worked GREAT in helping me to adjust my Honeywell VR8200A Continuous Pilot gas valves!! 11 in. WC is well within their "sweet spot"!!

Those are costly. How would is use that To check the pressure? Seems I'd need to disassemble and add fittings.

TD

 

[Namako]

Those are costly. How would is use that To check the pressure? Seems I'd need to disassemble and add fittings.

TD

They come with everything needed... Just connect it up to the exit port on the valve, and adjust away... I have two gas valves, and both were quite aways off, despite following the installation instructions.

Cost??? Hey... You gotta stop and think, just how cool would this tool
be in your brewery???

 

[Irrenarzt]

I would agree. 80-120 bucks is well worth it to achieve blue flame...

 

[TrickyDick]

I would agree. 80-120 bucks is well worth it to achieve blue flame...

I realized that I hadn't tried to adjust the flame on the valves with the new burners. I doubt I can dial it in, and on the manual ball valve control burner, there is nothing to adjust and that also burns orangey blue. I think I'm going to try putting an adjustable regulator like a welding style regulator (I found propane regs at airgas website similar to the acetylene type) to adjust the manifold pressure. The dials on those have much larger graduations than I would like and dialing in 11" WC might be tough, but I bet I could get a good flame between 1-3 psi.

I just need to figure out how to plumb on of those type of regulators into my current supply side: a brass QD port connected to my buried tank instead of a CGA-510 connection. I think that can be removed from the regulator body.
Then I need to figure how to plumb the outlet on the regulator onto my manifold.

Alternately I could plumb the regulator onto the supply QD port instead of on the brew stand, but I would hate to leave this outside where it could be damaged or stolen. QD fittings are a possibility. I think the regulator may need to be mounted upside down due to clearance issues.

Thanks for the support, I'll let you know when I get it sorted out.

TD

 

[Irrenarzt]

My concern for you Rich is that your underground tank has a low pressure regulator that may be limiting your performance. I bet if you take a small propane tank and an acetylene regulator, you'll be able to see if this helps your performance pretty quickly. You may want to kick down for these just in case to want to brew remotely, at another venue like at a Big Brew day etc.

Another issue might be the Honeywells not giving you good stoich as it seems from the posts Namako has above that these valves can be variable and possibly tunable via a manometer. I have no direct experience with this as I'm not running them but it's worth a look.

 

[Namako]

If you're running Honeywells, they are almost certainly adjustable. My VR8200A Continuous Pilot Gas Valves have a recessed pressure adjustment cap cover that protects/hides the adjustment screw. The screw itself sits on top of a spring that gets replaced when you convert the valve from natural gas to LP, hence my need to re-adjust my valves after I removed the natural gas spring... and to justify my purchase of a Man Meter to my SWMBO (yeah, I know - I MAY have "man" issues)!

Another nice thing about the manometer (fancy word for pressure gauge) is that you can also check the incoming pressure from your source. The gas valve won't build pressure, so if you're not getting at least 11 inches WC from your source to the gas valve inlet, then you know the problem is not your valve, but rather the primary regulator that's sitting on top of your LP tank, or coming out of your underground tank.

Check out pages 10-11 in the following link:

http://www.forwardthinking.honeywell.com/related_links/combustion/vr8300_vr8200/install/68_0046.pdf

 

[luhrks]

TD,
Is your boil burner running yellow without a pot on it, or just with the pot on it.

If it's blue without and yellow with, you've got some breathing room issues. Drop the burner down until it burns blue. Don't be surprised if it ends up 10-14" below the pot.

 

[TrickyDick]

I need to test it. Nearly impossible to pull this off during the work week. I'll do some troubleshooting this weekend.

TD

 

[Irrenarzt]

Sounds like there is a team effort developing to help you bro. We'll get it sorted out. Or your dime of course. Advice is free...

 

[TrickyDick]

Sounds like there is a team effort developing to help you bro. We'll get it sorted out. Or your dime of course. Advice is free...

Hah!
Yah! It all appreciated for sure!

Well I made an effort after kids were in bed to test out the Honeywell adjustments. The mash burner was dialed way down. The HLT burner was all the way up. I removed the wind deflectors. I tried putting pot on the burner and off. Never able to get pure blue flame. The boil burner with manual valve was worst.

When I dialed the Honeywell adjustments clockwise, the flame burned stronger to a point, but never turned blue. Dialed CCW, it eventually killed the flame, never blue totally.. I also found two loose mini jets. A little tightening and those were good to go. Pics coming in next post. Did I mention the photo stream thing apple commercials like to show off doesn't work in the real world..

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Here are pics

The first two are the manual ball valve controlled burner BK

Then next three are mash tun burner. Getting hard to see as sun goes down, but you get the idea. pics don't do it justice, the base is blue and near the top, there is an orangish color.

last pic HLT.

Then cleaning up I tipped the whole thing over with the kettle onto concrete. boom! Well, no major scuffs, or dents. the control panel really unbalances it with the kettles being removed and setting inside.

At this point, it seems that the input gas pressure is just not correct. It seems like a manometer is being ordered tonight along with a propane regulator I can connect to a portable cylinder and maybe eventually to the manifold.

Does that manometer include fittings to connect to different things?

Thanks

TD

 

[luhrks]

Looks like you have the right pressure, but lack volume/flow.

 

[TrickyDick]

Looks like you have the right pressure, but lack volume/flow.

Amazon.com has a generous return policy on manometers I hear!!

So what next?? Is it a restriction in my manifold? Spiders or bugs that crawled inside and died??

I mean hey, it's hot and I can brew, but its not burning right..

TD

 

[Irrenarzt]

It looks like you have a regulator issue if you can get the right pressure but not enough flow.

Get an acetylene regulator and a small propane tank and try that. That will tell you if your underground tank regulator is too wimpy. Do you know anyone you can borrow a regulator from? If you can borrow one for test purposes you can check it and see before kicking down the cash to buy one.

I'm interested in learning if this works as I was considering getting a larger tank. I can't bury one easily on my property as I don't have a good spot near where I brew but I could do an above ground perhaps. But if it doesn't work, then I'll pass...

 

[TrickyDick]

I cannot imagine the buried tank regulator is too wimpy. I think it is a 10 psi regulator. I will measure the pressure when I get my manometer, me see what I am getting at the QD, and also at the Boil Kettle burner. Not sure how to test the main burners on the Honeywell valves, since these only flow gas when the pilot thermistor is sensing heat. I suppose I could disconnect the pilots and set them over a candle or flame. Kinda a pain in the butt. I don't think I can take pressure measurements from the burner while it is ignited, but I suppose I could try that. I am not sure if the pressure exiting the burner nozzles is the same as the pressure before the nozzles. Will be easy to test the boil kettle though,and at least be able to tell if my manifold pressure is too high or too low.

Once I have that information, I can make a decision on a regulator. It might be cheaper to just try to replace my current Marshall regulator with another one and see if I just had a bad regulator. With the manometer I could test it. I am starting to think that the two stage Marshall, could be the problem. I don't understand the physics behind regulators, but it seems, that it is now a three stage with the regulator on the buried tank, and now the two stage on the manifold. It might be off because of that I am guessing. I'll let you know what my manometer is telling me probably this weekend.

TD

Oh and by the way, I know that someone uses an acetylene regulator. I found this:

http://airgas.com/browse/productDetail.aspx?Category=100&product=RAD64003892

Kinda pricey, but 7 year warranty and UL listed for propane.

 

[Irrenarzt]

Trust me when I say I can almost guarantee the underground tank regulator is too wimpy to put out the flow rates you need. It may be able to deliver 10 psi but at what flow rate? You need to be able to push both pressure and a high enough flow rate for your flames to be burning blue. It's not simply a matter of PSI. They engineer the hell out of those things to NOT allow all the gas to rush out at once in case of a failure since a flammable gas leak can have serious reprecussions should it all evacuate at once. Think of the liability the tank manufacturer has to carry if they have a catastrophic release? They are probably scared schitless of a scenario like that. 200 pounds of propane in an enclosed place could lead to a pretty large explosion.

For most uses (BBQ, home heating etc.) the regulator on there is likely OK. But for a Brutus where flow rate is at a premium, you would be surprised how many regulators do not make the cut so to say.

I went through a number of low end regulators before switching to the acetylene one. All of them had the same problem you're exhibiting. Granted mine were not on a big tank but I bet that one on your buried tank is even more restrictive seeing as the volume of gas if released all at once is much more deadly than you would find on a 20 pound cylinder.

166 plus shipping is well worth it if it works out. I would say to borrow one first if possible.

 

[StainlessBrewing]

Did you guys stick with 11ga or go 16ga?

 

[Irrenarzt]

My wall thickness is ~83 thousandths, whatever that is in ga I'm not sure. I thought 120 thousandths was too thick and 62 was probably too thin for tapping and screwing into. 62 would likely be fine for structure though...

 

[StainlessBrewing]

14ga is .083. Thanks! I'm planning on building something in the future because I'm sick of my turkey fryer setup.

 

[Irrenarzt]

Plus you are Stainless Brewing. Gotta represent...

 

[TrickyDick]

I think mine is like 3/16 it was damn thick.

Got the manometer

 

[Irrenarzt]

The upside of that is if you want to set up an impromptu stage for really fat strippers to dance on, you can do that with 3/16" wall.

The downside is you might break your casters or permanently scar your brain for life.

 

[StainlessBrewing]

Plus you are Stainless Brewing. Gotta represent...

Exactly!

 

[TrickyDick]

So, $100 later, the NEXT propane "expert" comes out. He is actually prompt and friendly and seems to know what he is doing (and I would expect that after 30 years in the biz)

Since I didn't know how to use the $100+ manometer I bought, I learned how... will be needing it later for sure.

So after two hours, about 2/3rd of which was spent looking over "brewzilla", I learned..
1.) marshall regulator (company has since gone out of business after decades) only good for 160k btu.
2.) running one burner is fine pressure wise on the manifold.
3.) running two burners, manifold pressure drops more than an inch.
4.) running three burners pressure drops below 5 inches.
5.) that I need a new regulator (Reco brand - seems to be good stuff. has adjustment screw. 420k BTU rating. housing is bolted together with replaceable seal. Two stage so I can hook up a portable cylinder down the road if needed)
6.) how to use the digital manometer to fine tune my valves (once I get the new regulator)
7.) that since the burners are non-adjustable, it still doesn't make sense why they burn yellow-orange instead of pure blue.
8.) that I'm gonna need some pipe to revise my manifold (slightly) to accommodate the new regulator.
9.) he eyeballed the tank regulator and seems to think that its fine - not the problem.
9.) this hobby ain't cheap!
10.) that this probably isn't the last of the story. Will report back after new regulator installed, pressures dialed in on the two valve controlled burners.

thanks for the help guys!
Brewing tomorrow. Gonna be sure that I don't let three burners activate at once. Only time this is an issue is when I am collecting wort. I start the BK burner after its got a good 3-4 gallons in it. The Mash Tun and HLT are kept at 168 & 170 so they occasionally cycle on. Think I'll turn off the mash tun and deal with it.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Update -

I still have issues. Cross posted on another thread as well.


Replaced Marshall 290 with a Reco 2 stage 450k BTU rated regulator.
Lose pressure when I have more than one burner running. 9" with 2, 5" with 3.
Still no razor sharp blue flame with any combination.
Source is tandem 250gal tanks with a psi regulator. There must be another secondary somewhere I think, and probably a crappy one at that.
I connect my rig to a QD, which I thought went right to the buried tanks, but seems like it probably does not.
I don't think a portable 15 pound cylinder can run three 100k btu burners. Hate to take a step backwards versus huge buried tanks, but think I need to try that for diagnostic purposes.


By the way. Found out my QD hookup bypasses the secondary regulator. Primary 10psi tank regulator is feeding directly the 3/4" line to which my manifold is connected by a two stage regulator. Is there a problem with having a 10 psi primary regulator on the buried tanks, AND a two stage regulator on the manifold ( in essence two primary regulators??). Also the Honeywell valves have built in regulators. I can't imagine that this is the root of my problems. I also found the number of the guy installed the propane stuff in my home - I had his phone number wrong the whole time, DOH!

Anyway, he seemed to think that the problems were because of the 10 psi primary regulator, and the two stage manifold regulator instead of a single stage regulator. Heck at this point, I think I'd be willing to try just about anything. Tried to pipckup a POL to 1/4" NPT connector so I could hookup a portable cylinder again (threw out my old one when I got the QD setup!)

TD

 

[Irrenarzt]

I've been saying to try a 20 pound portable tank forever. Instead you are driving yourself crazy with all this humpty dumpty round and round crap and getting not so far.

Get a small portable and borrow an acetylene regulator just to test it out. I bet your problems are solved. You should never have regulators in tandem, or multiples in series. It is never a good thing. You may have to abandon those buried tanks but at least you'll have good flame.

 

[TrickyDick]

You've got a point.

Going to give it a try.

EDIT
So you use the acetylene regulator to connect to the propane cylinder, and then how do you plumb it into your manifold from there?
I have a 1/2" ball valve, and a 3/8" reducing bushing. What kinda of hose did you use to connect the regulator output to the manifold input? Need to round up some parts.
TD

 

[Irrenarzt]

It's going to depend on how the gas enters your system currently. I use a 1/4" Swagelok braided teflon line from the regulator to my manifold so mine won't be the same as yours.

Whatever fittings come into your system now, use the same ones from your acetylene regulator needle valve to your manifold. It may require some looking around but it should be doable. All these brass fittings are fairly available from McMaster, Grainger etc.

 

[TrickyDick]

It's going to depend on how the gas enters your system currently. I use a 1/4" Swagelok braided teflon line from the regulator to my manifold so mine won't be the same as yours.

Whatever fittings come into your system now, use the same ones from your acetylene regulator needle valve to your manifold. It may require some looking around but it should be doable. All these brass fittings are fairly available from McMaster, Grainger etc.

Right now, the gas comes into a regulator via 1/4" flex hose, then to manifold via 1/2" pipe. Looks like I need a 1/4 to 1/2 reducing bushing and some braided line, and an acetylene regulator, unless I want to try plumbing the regulator direct onto manifold.

I'm going to try using a propane POL fitting on my existing regulator first, to connect my existing regulator to a portable cylinder, since those are dirt cheap, and if that still doesn't work, plan as above like your setup. You don't get freeze over problems with your portable cylinder?

TD