Brut IPA without enzymes

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Dgallo

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Has anyone done this and how low can you get without the enzymes?
Depends on how much corn sugar you want to add. Probably 1.007 If it was just 2 row/Pilsner and corn sugar. Mash 148 and use the highest attenuating yeast you can find
 

TheMadKing

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use a diastaticus var yeast and it makes its own enzymes - you can get down to 1.000 if you give it enough time
 

Jag75

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Never made a brut IPA or a brut anything . I'm guessing that because brut is such a big beer you need enzymes to get it to a certain dryness . I'm getting from the op that there are negatives from using enzymes . Btw that omega yeast sounds pretty good .
 

TheMadKing

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Never made a brut IPA or a brut anything . I'm guessing that because brut is such a big beer you need enzymes to get it to a certain dryness . I'm getting from the op that there are negatives from using enzymes . Btw that omega yeast sounds pretty good .
Brut IPA's are IPA's with a final gravity of around 1.000 SG. They are very dry, highly carbonated, and usually rely on lots of late hop additions for a floral, citrus, fruity flavor but low bitterness. They are typically not big beer with OG's around 1.045, and they drink more like champagne than beer.

There's no negative from using the enzyme, and its the easiest way to get the beer to completely ferment.
 
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Steveruch

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Depends on how much corn sugar you want to add. Probably 1.007 If it was just 2 row/Pilsner and corn sugar. Mash 148 and use the highest attenuating yeast you can find
And the yeast choice. I got an extract brown ale down to 1.007 with nottingham and no sugar.
 
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Steveruch

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Never made a brut IPA or a brut anything . I'm guessing that because brut is such a big beer you need enzymes to get it to a certain dryness . I'm getting from the op that there are negatives from using enzymes . Btw that omega yeast sounds pretty good .
Not saying negatives, just curious if anyone tried without and how low it can go without.
 

Dgallo

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And the yeast choice. I got an extract brown ale down to 1.007 with nottingham and no sugar.
That’s not right for a dark beer. Regardless of yeast, brewers yeast can not chew through maltose. Maybe they aren’t using actual roasted grains in the darker extract and just some form of color. Idk but I do know without enzymes 1.007-1.009 is really the lowest a beer will go on there own without enzymes or other cultures being used for fermentation
 

TheMadKing

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That’s not right for a dark beer. Regardless of yeast, brewers yeast can not chew through maltose. Maybe they aren’t using actual roasted grains in the darker extract and just some form of color. Idk but I do know without enzymes 1.007-1.009 is really the lowest a beer will go on there own without enzymes or other cultures being used for fermentation
http://www.brewmorebeer.com/brewing-sugars/
 

TheMadKing

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Used the wrong term then. Replaced it with dextrin
Sorry, but roasted malt isn't high in dextrin either... It's perfectly easy to make a dark colored beer with a low FG, Irish stout is a good example of this.

Color and final gravity are not linked directly unless the proportions of roasted malt is so high that there isn't enough diastatic power in the base malt to convert it.
 

Northern_Brewer

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Boddington's used to get down to 1.003 in the 1970s (with about 10% invert) for an apparent attenuation over 90%, and 1.006 in the 1980s (just pale malt) - it looks like they picked up some diastaticus in their yeast during WWII or thereabouts.

Brut IPA is not so new (and technically Boddies main beer is an IPA, that's always been its name within the brewery).
 
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Steveruch

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That’s not right for a dark beer. Regardless of yeast, brewers yeast can not chew through maltose. Maybe they aren’t using actual roasted grains in the darker extract and just some form of color. Idk but I do know without enzymes 1.007-1.009 is really the lowest a beer will go on there own without enzymes or other cultures being used for fermentation
I used pale ale lme. 2 ounces pale chocolate malt, 6 ounces victory, and 4 ounces crystal 80 in a two gallon batch, I was going for color close to Newcastle.
 

johngg123

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Love this topic! I was just thinking earlier tonight what the history of brut (<= 1.003 FG) beers were in history. My last 3 batches of homebrew were brut IPAs which finished below .998. One batch I entered in several comps and consistently received 40 pts! Years ago before the techniques of today I was using beano to get brut beers which really didn’t work that well. Now I use amalyse in a 142 deg mash and ultra ferm in the fermenter. Works well.

Anyhow... the OPs question. A fun idea might be trying an overnight mash at a low temp like 140ish.
 

TheMadKing

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Love this topic! I was just thinking earlier tonight what the history of brut (<= 1.003 FG) beers were in history. My last 3 batches of homebrew were brut IPAs which finished below .998. One batch I entered in several comps and consistently received 40 pts! Years ago before the techniques of today I was using beano to get brut beers which really didn’t work that well. Now I use amalyse in a 142 deg mash and ultra ferm in the fermenter. Works well.

Anyhow... the OPs question. A fun idea might be trying an overnight mash at a low temp like 140ish.
A mash that low is outside the optimal range for beta amylase to work so you'll actually get a less fermentable wort than holding it at 145.

You also will get less alpha amylase activity at a lower temp so your beta amylase won't be able to break down any branched starch molecules, it can only snip the ends off of complex sugar chains

Beta amylase also breaks down quickly in the mash and is basically gone after an hour anyway.
 

Vale71

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You also will get less alpha amylase activity at a lower temp so your beta amylase won't be able to break down any branched starch molecules, it can only snip the ends off of complex sugar chains
That's not an issue as beta-amylase cannot do that under any circumstance whatsover anyway. Neither can alpha or any other enzyme that is active in the mash, hence the need for synthetic enzyme additions.
 

Vale71

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Not saying negatives, just curious if anyone tried without and how low it can go without.
Without either sugar additions or enzymes or overattenuating yeast you could realistically reach maybe 82-83% apparent attenuation, much too low for your beer to be considered brut-anything.
 

TheMadKing

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That's not an issue as beta-amylase cannot do that under any circumstance whatsover anyway. Neither can alpha or any other enzyme that is active in the mash, hence the need for synthetic enzyme additions.
You're right, my bad, both work on linear polysaccharides only
 

eric19312

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It is interesting question--part of challenge with Brut IPA is desire to make these quick turn around beers. Get them kegged and drinking while the hops still have lots of pop. A quick yeast can't hurt. I'm curious about the results with the gulo ale yeast but so far I've been doing my experiments using enzymes and US-05.

One thing to consider is how low do you really want to go in gravity? You might think 1.003 is pretty darn low and good enough for the idea. 1.045 to 1.003 is 93.1% apparent attenuation--but it is only 76.3% real attenuation. For perspective, to fully attenuate the beer (real attenuation) you need to take it all the way to 0.9905. That is 12.5 SG points below 1.003.
 

mirthfuldragon

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I’m not sure why you’re hesitant with the enzyme, but I’d recommend trying this strain:
https://omegayeast.com/yeast/hybrids/gulo-ale
Benefits of high STA1 expression without the phenolics.
Btw that omega yeast sounds pretty good .
Gulo gets down to 1.007-1.008 in my last two "dry"-PAs. My taste run towards dry beers, so it has basically became my house strain. Currently have an Azacca-Zappa one in the keg, all whirlpool and dry hops, that I am very pleased with. It does not come across as dry in the way a saison or true brut champagne does, but it also lacks that sometimes cloying sweetness of IPAs. Completely non-phenolic. If it does express any esters or other notes, the 7 ounces of whirlpool hops and 3 ounces of dry hops mask it entirely. I'm mashing at 148-149°, but I may try something different next time (direct-fire BIAB step mash with gentle heat at 144° then 2° steps every 10 minutes or so, still thinking about the process).

Gulo ferments relatively quick and floccs well. At some point I want to try it in a bier de garde, but there's a lot of big beers sitting around my house right now awaiting drinking.
 

isomerization

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Gulo gets down to 1.007-1.008 in my last two "dry"-PAs. My taste run towards dry beers, so it has basically became my house strain. Currently have an Azacca-Zappa one in the keg, all whirlpool and dry hops, that I am very pleased with. It does not come across as dry in the way a saison or true brut champagne does, but it also lacks that sometimes cloying sweetness of IPAs. Completely non-phenolic. If it does express any esters or other notes, the 7 ounces of whirlpool hops and 3 ounces of dry hops mask it entirely. I'm mashing at 148-149°, but I may try something different next time (direct-fire BIAB step mash with gentle heat at 144° then 2° steps every 10 minutes or so, still thinking about the process).

Gulo ferments relatively quick and floccs well. At some point I want to try it in a bier de garde, but there's a lot of big beers sitting around my house right now awaiting drinking.
Are you kegging or bottling? Just wondering based on the quick ferment comment. I’ve never used the yeast, but STA1-positive continued fermentation is rarely quick.
 

mirthfuldragon

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Are you kegging or bottling? Just wondering based on the quick ferment comment. I’ve never used the yeast, but STA1-positive continued fermentation is rarely quick.
Kegging. OG to stable SG in ~5 days per Tilt and verified with a hydrometer, then let it sit another 6-8 days to verify stable FG. Yeast pitched at ~70° and then fermented ~74°. Basically balancing the risk of oxidation against eeking out those last few gravity points. I use fermonsters and end with balloon locks for cold-crash oxidation protection, and while I like plastic fermentors, there's only so far I trust their semi-permeable nature when it comes to throwing $20 worth of hops at the beer.
At some point some 1/4 barrel kegs are going to show up on Craigslist, I hope, but until then stainless pressure fermentors are out of my budget.
 
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