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Martin2189

Martin2189

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Hi so my mash tun is on the way out. I have a 75l hlt and 95l end boiler, I was thinking and yes it might be a stupid question but can I not just use my hlt for my mash and have the entire amount of water I need for the brew in with the grain? Then when I need to mash out I can raise the entire contents to the mash out temp al at once? I usually do 10g batches to I think it might be big enough
 
Martin2189 said:
Hi so my mash tun is on the way out. I have a 75l hlt and 95l end boiler, I was thinking and yes it might be a stupid question but can I not just use my hlt for my mash and have the entire amount of water I need for the brew in with the grain? Then when I need to mash out I can raise the entire contents to the mash out temp al at once? I usually do 10g batches to I think it might be big enough
Click to expand...
Research biab. Cheers
 
1. I use a 20.5 gallon (78 liter) kettle for my mash tun when I do 10-gallon batches.

2. I do a "full volume mash," i.e., no sparging.

3. I've never done a mashout in my brewing career, but if you want to do that, I'd ask how are you planning to heat up what is essentially 16 or 17 gallons of mash to a mashout temp? RIMS? HERMS? Just heat the bottom?

It's going to take a while to raise that much to a mashout temp; why not just lauter it off into the boil kettle and get that heating? That is, assuming you're recirculating w/ a pump, but maybe you're not. More details might help.
 
mongoose33 said:
1. I use a 20.5 gallon (78 liter) kettle for my mash tun when I do 10-gallon batches.

2. I do a "full volume mash," i.e., no sparging.

3. I've never done a mashout in my brewing career, but if you want to do that, I'd ask how are you planning to heat up what is essentially 16 or 17 gallons of mash to a mashout temp? RIMS? HERMS? Just heat the bottom?

It's going to take a while to raise that much to a mashout temp; why not just lauter it off into the boil kettle and get that heating? That is, assuming you're recirculating w/ a pump, but maybe you're not. More details might help.
Click to expand...
For that last bit, to mash out, you can add boiling water or pull a thin decoction. It's not that hard to do.

I'm up the market for a new mash tun.
 
mongoose33 said:
1. I use a 20.5 gallon (78 liter) kettle for my mash tun when I do 10-gallon batches.

2. I do a "full volume mash," i.e., no sparging.

3. I've never done a mashout in my brewing career, but if you want to do that, I'd ask how are you planning to heat up what is essentially 16 or 17 gallons of mash to a mashout temp? RIMS? HERMS? Just heat the bottom?

It's going to take a while to raise that much to a mashout temp; why not just lauter it off into the boil kettle and get that heating? That is, assuming you're recirculating w/ a pump, but maybe you're not. More details might help.
Click to expand...

Hi mongoose,

This is my setup
IMG_1473.JPG

Inside each boiler is 2x 2.4kw element so I could heat the mash back up, my only worry would that I would burn the grain as it would be direct contact, or would that not happen? Also I’d have to have the element on now and then during the mash to keep the temp up I’d expect. Might be easier just buying a new mash tun was just wondering if I could get round it with what I had.
 
Schlenkerla said:
For that last bit, to mash out, you can add boiling water or pull a thin decoction. It's not that hard to do.

I'm up the market for a new mash tun.
Click to expand...
That might not be a bad shout, I’m also looking into converting a keg into a mash tun to save some money
 
Since you're not fly sparging for an hour, there's much less or no need for a mashout.
With BIAB, lift the bag and start heating the kettle.
Using a mash tun, batch sparge. Vorlauf and lauter, heat runnings as they accumulate in the kettle.

If it's really critical and you need to mashout, as @Schlenkerla said, add boiling water or decoct a portion.

I would not directly heat the mash with an element for fear of scorching.
 
Martin2189 said:
Hi mongoose,

This is my setup
View attachment 632254
Inside each boiler is 2x 2.4kw element so I could heat the mash back up, my only worry would that I would burn the grain as it would be direct contact, or would that not happen? Also I’d have to have the element on now and then during the mash to keep the temp up I’d expect. Might be easier just buying a new mash tun was just wondering if I could get round it with what I had.
Click to expand...

Not quite understanding the setup....I have exactly the same locline sparge/recirc arm, exactly the same cooler. Weird. :)

So...you're doing a fly sparge? I'm not quite sure what I'm seeing there.

So....no recirculation during the mash, correct? Using the cooler to insulate the mash, no additional heat source during the mash, such as HERMS?

I would not use exposed elements to heat up a mash, but that's me. Mash is very good at insulating; simply heating the mash will require stirring, a fair amount of it, to bring the mash up to temp.

<thinking cap on>I have a 5500-watt element in my BK, and it'll heat 8 gallons of strike water about....oh, maybe 4 degrees a minute. Yours is a little lower, but not much, 4800 watts, so call it pretty similar. You'd heat up....lessee, 17 or so gallons of mash in a BK from, say, 150 to 170+ in....maybe 5 or 6 minutes if it were just the water, but the mash is a tough nut to crack in terms of heat transfer. You'll overcook the mash on the bottom, and pretty quickly. You'd have to stir pretty aggressively to keep the mash moving past the elements....<off>

I've done BIAB, as well as a version of BIAB where I'm lautering off from the cooler (exactly the same one as yours) but using the bag to line the cooler. Sort of a combination of BIAB and standard lautering off of a mash. Works, too, btw.

So, I'm back to....is it necessary to do a mashout? You could get a bag to line the cooler (mine was made by Michael Wilser, cost me something like circa $30. And he has the pattern, same cooler. :)

I'm wondering if maybe you're overthinking this a bit....
 
Martin2189 said:
Hi mongoose,

This is my setup
View attachment 632254
Inside each boiler is 2x 2.4kw element so I could heat the mash back up, my only worry would that I would burn the grain as it would be direct contact, or would that not happen? Also I’d have to have the element on now and then during the mash to keep the temp up I’d expect. Might be easier just buying a new mash tun was just wondering if I could get round it with what I had.
Click to expand...
I'm looking at buying a direct heated mash tun and do a RIMS.

Looking long and hard at a Northern Brewer Megapot for stove top use. I'm in an apartment that's really a brewery. LoL

I have that same darned cooler.... [emoji21]
mongoose33 said:
Not quite understanding the setup....I have exactly the same locline sparge/recirc arm, exactly the same cooler. Weird. :)

So...you're doing a fly sparge? I'm not quite sure what I'm seeing there.

So....no recirculation during the mash, correct? Using the cooler to insulate the mash, no additional heat source during the mash, such as HERMS?

I would not use exposed elements to heat up a mash, but that's me. Mash is very good at insulating; simply heating the mash will require stirring, a fair amount of it, to bring the mash up to temp.

<thinking cap on>I have a 5500-watt element in my BK, and it'll heat 8 gallons of strike water about....oh, maybe 4 degrees a minute. Yours is a little lower, but not much, 4800 watts, so call it pretty similar. You'd heat up....lessee, 17 or so gallons of mash in a BK from, say, 150 to 170+ in....maybe 5 or 6 minutes if it were just the water, but the mash is a tough nut to crack in terms of heat transfer. You'll overcook the mash on the bottom, and pretty quickly. You'd have to stir pretty aggressively to keep the mash moving past the elements....<off>

I've done BIAB, as well as a version of BIAB where I'm lautering off from the cooler (exactly the same one as yours) but using the bag to line the cooler. Sort of a combination of BIAB and standard lautering off of a mash. Works, too, btw.

So, I'm back to....is it necessary to do a mashout? You could get a bag to line the cooler (mine was made by Michael Wilser, cost me something like circa $30. And he has the pattern, same cooler. :)

I'm wondering if maybe you're overthinking this a bit....
Click to expand...
Same cooler... LoL

All three of us. I dislike the heat issues I have with this cooler. You guys have heat problems or is your dough in pretty consistent?

BTW - I'm torn about DO Sensor or a New Mash Tun. Wanting both.

Did you see my PM on LOB via Tapatalk?
 
Schlenkerla said:
I'm looking at buying a direct heated mash tun and do a RIMS.
Click to expand...

I'll try not to make this too much of a thread drift, though I think this discussion is still within the confines.

I don't understand--why would you do both a direct-heated mash tun as well as a RIMS? In my setup, I heat the strike water in my BK, pump it over to the mash tun where I underlet the grain, and then let RIMS maintain the temp. It's only a question of what I want that strike water temp to be.

And FWIW, I typically would use strike water about 160-162 degrees, and I've had either an evil vision or revelation about this: last time I did a step mash, starting w/ strike at 139 (which dropped to 132 in the mash tun), and then ramped up to 149 after 10 minutes. Never did the mash exceed 150 degrees, which means no degradation of the enzymes by using water in the 160+ degree range. I had some of the best conversion ever, and so I'm pondering this very hard right now....

Looking long and hard at a Northern Brewer Megapot for stove top use. I'm in an apartment that's really a brewery. LoL
Click to expand...

I had a megapot; nothing wrong with the kettle, I didn't care for the weldless fittings they used. I've since drilled and used the weldless fittings Bobby at Brewhardware sells, and they are stunningly solid and never so much as a hint of a leak, unlike my fittings on the megapot.

I have that same darned cooler.... [emoji21] Same cooler... LoL

All three of us. I dislike the heat issues I have with this cooler. You guys have heat problems or is your dough in pretty consistent?
Click to expand...

What heat issues? When I used mine as a mash tun, I'd always wrap it with a blanket to hold in heat. There are better-insulated coolers out there, but the form factor of this one is nice. I'd thought about wrapping it with reflectix but never got around to it.

BTW - I'm torn about DO Sensor or a New Mash Tun. Wanting both.

Did you see my PM on LOB via Tapatalk?
Click to expand...

I'm....finally at a place where I have the system where i want it. It's only taken 18 months. :) But that makes me wondering about the DO sensor. I'm doing the LODO stuff, but to see where and how it's actually making a difference, need to measure.

I hadn't seen the PM, heading there now.
 
mongoose33 said:
I'll try not to make this too much of a thread drift, though I think this discussion is still within the confines.

I don't understand--why would you do both a direct-heated mash tun as well as a RIMS? In my setup, I heat the strike water in my BK, pump it over to the mash tun where I underlet the grain, and then let RIMS maintain the temp. It's only a question of what I want that strike water temp to be.

And FWIW, I typically would use strike water about 160-162 degrees, and I've had either an evil vision or revelation about this: last time I did a step mash, starting w/ strike at 139 (which dropped to 132 in the mash tun), and then ramped up to 149 after 10 minutes. Never did the mash exceed 150 degrees, which means no degradation of the enzymes by using water in the 160+ degree range. I had some of the best conversion ever, and so I'm pondering this very hard right now....



I had a megapot; nothing wrong with the kettle, I didn't care for the weldless fittings they used. I've since drilled and used the weldless fittings Bobby at Brewhardware sells, and they are stunningly solid and never so much as a hint of a leak, unlike my fittings on the megapot.



What heat issues? When I used mine as a mash tun, I'd always wrap it with a blanket to hold in heat. There are better-insulated coolers out there, but the form factor of this one is nice. I'd thought about wrapping it with reflectix but never got around to it.



I'm....finally at a place where I have the system where i want it. It's only taken 18 months. :) But that makes me wondering about the DO sensor. I'm doing the LODO stuff, but to see where and how it's actually making a difference, need to measure.

I hadn't seen the PM, heading there now.
Click to expand...
Short of time for a better post. When I hit the Jimmy Buffet party I'll have more time for a better post.

Maybe I'm using RIMS incorrectly. I'm thinking of a little stove top direct heat and recirculating with a pump. Just bought a mash transfer pump from NB.
 
mongoose33 said:
I'll try not to make this too much of a thread drift, though I think this discussion is still within the confines.

I don't understand--why would you do both a direct-heated mash tun as well as a RIMS? In my setup, I heat the strike water in my BK, pump it over to the mash tun where I underlet the grain, and then let RIMS maintain the temp. It's only a question of what I want that strike water temp to be.

And FWIW, I typically would use strike water about 160-162 degrees, and I've had either an evil vision or revelation about this: last time I did a step mash, starting w/ strike at 139 (which dropped to 132 in the mash tun), and then ramped up to 149 after 10 minutes. Never did the mash exceed 150 degrees, which means no degradation of the enzymes by using water in the 160+ degree range. I had some of the best conversion ever, and so I'm pondering this very hard right now....



I had a megapot; nothing wrong with the kettle, I didn't care for the weldless fittings they used. I've since drilled and used the weldless fittings Bobby at Brewhardware sells, and they are stunningly solid and never so much as a hint of a leak, unlike my fittings on the megapot.



What heat issues? When I used mine as a mash tun, I'd always wrap it with a blanket to hold in heat. There are better-insulated coolers out there, but the form factor of this one is nice. I'd thought about wrapping it with reflectix but never got around to it.



I'm....finally at a place where I have the system where i want it. It's only taken 18 months. :) But that makes me wondering about the DO sensor. I'm doing the LODO stuff, but to see where and how it's actually making a difference, need to measure.

I hadn't seen the PM, heading there now.
Click to expand...
I don't want to commandeer the OPs thread. To the OP if it bothers you, let me know. I'm shopping for new mash tun. Maybe you have the investigative thoughts.

For clarification, I issues with holding temperature in this igloo cooler or it's a measurement problem. All three of my long stem thermometers measure low in this thing. Have them hanging vertically inside and outside of the cooler. Maybe they're not deep enough into the mash on the externals. I think it's partly utilization of the cooler I'm doing 8-10# grists @ 1.0-1.25 qrt/lb. Then add grain conditioning (I believe it messes up the strike formula). It always doughs in below target. I put towels on the top and use float balls for mash capping and underlet. Any steps mashes I do are always under target. I also want to migrate away from plastics.

My thought was to go with SS. Specifics direct heat mash tun and recirculate. Maybe that's not RIMs since it's not an external loop heat source. I've also thought about buying 1/2 SS Coil to a HERMs.

I want flexibility to do step and regular infusion. I brew 4-8% beers in 5 gallon increments. Most sessions. I am doing wheats with acid rests at 100F. My step mashes, 100, 113, 122, 131, 144, 155, 161. Yeah efficiencies through the roof and have high clove phenolics. My 100F acid rest is a yeast scavenged rest.

I'll check out Bobby's site.

FWIW - Believe I'm a year behind you on LOB journey. Equipment ungrades are going gradual.
 
Direct fired recirculated works great and is uncomplicated compared to herms or rims also the watt density is lower so less chance of scorching. There just isn't really any need to go all plumbing crazy unless you have extra money you need to get rid of. Also check out Spike kettles. They are about the same price as the megapot but thicker with better welded ports.
 
Bilsch said:
Direct fired recirculated works great and is uncomplicated compared to herms or rims also the watt density is lower so less chance of scorching. There just isn't really any need to go all plumbing crazy unless you have extra money you need to get rid of. Also check out Spike kettles. They are about the same price as the megapot but thicker with better welded ports.
Click to expand...
Those look like some really nice kettles at a reasonable price. I know what website I'll be surfing at lunch.
 
Ok you got me there but for that luxury you spend a lot of coin on stainless and temp control. IMO for someone on a budget and or just starting in recirculating mash, single kettle direct fired is the way to go. And if you want to make it dead easy add induction plate heating.
 
Bilsch said:
Ok you got me there but for that luxury you spend a lot of coin on stainless and temp control. IMO for someone on a budget and or just starting in recirculating mash, single kettle direct fired is the way to go. And if you want to make it dead easy add induction plate heating.
Click to expand...
Bilsch, thanks for the confirmation on the direct heated recirculated mash. Little bit of a repeat of the LOB Sluggish Fermentation discussion. I'm still doing everything stove top and want more heat control with an exit plan to non-metallics in my brewing process.

The Spike Brewing BK with a false bottom looks like a really good option.
 
I've got 2 spike 10 gal and am going to get a third soon. Their thickness is a huge plus since any mods or welding is so much easier.

Anyway here is what I suggest to get started recirculating and still be lodo compliant. With your two vertical port kettle as mashtun basically this is the flow circuit. Pull wort out the bottom port, go through the pump then through a valve on the discharge of the pump, then into the top port of the kettle. Depending on the height of the top of the grain column you might need to put in a couple elbows on the inside of the upper port to relocate your discharge up a bit so it's on top of the grain bed. Keeping the return mostly internal means you do not need to port through your mashcap and it can float nicely without the weight of the return plumbing.
I use an inline thermometer on the re-circulation loop to keep track of the temperature of the mash. This system moves a lot of wort so your loop will never be more than a degree from the internal temp of the mash.
Keep your pump located close to the tun and you'll only need less than 2 feet of tubing for the circuit which reduces your exposure to oxygen from permeability of silicone.
That's the basics and you can add more complexity by porting in the water from your HLT so it goes into the lower port for the underlet and another valve so when the mash is done you can divert the loop into your boil kettle. Here is a pic of my system so you can get an idea of how simple the plumbing is. I can send you more detailed ones if you like.
IMG_3194(1).JPG
 
This is what the return manifold looks like to port the wort above the grain. It makes a nice place to set your mashcap so its ready to float as you underlet. It's all pretty simple but works very well.
IMG_2916.JPG
 
Bilsch said:
This is what the return manifold looks like to port the wort above the grain. It makes a nice place to set your mashcap so its ready to float as you underlet. It's all pretty simple but works very well.
View attachment 632657
Click to expand...

So you're returning the wort not on top (as if it were a fly sparge) but in the middle of the grain bed? Explain further, if you would.
 
RPh_Guy said:
Has anyone else considered wrapping the tubing in foil tape?
Click to expand...
I haven't, but now you mention it...
Per foot of 1/2" thick-walled silicone tubing, how much oxygen are we talking about during an hour mash and an hour sparge? Similar after a 10' sanitation cycle, 30' whirlpool, and 20' chilling?
 
mongoose33 said:
So you're returning the wort not on top (as if it were a fly sparge) but in the middle of the grain bed? Explain further, if you would.
Click to expand...

Be happy to explain.
During the re-circulation the wort is returned to the space above the grainbed but still below the mashcap which is resting on the liquid surface. Generally this grain free liquid space is at least a couple inches when doing thicker mashes and even more when doing full volume. Since the plumbing you see is 1/2" with 4 outlets, there isn't much velocity in this liquid space even with a MKII running full open therefore the grain surface is not disturbed. The returned wort distributes itself around that liquid pocket then descends through the grainbed, past the false bottom and is picked up by the inlet to the pump to go round again. So depending on my batch size and how much grain, I might have to adjust the length of the extension pipe that connects the upper kettle port to the return manifold to keep it above the settled grain level. It's not complicated though and only have two lengths, one for 10 lbs of grain and below and the other longer extension when using more.

One useful thing about this setup is I can do a closed sparge, well more correctly a wort displacement. Let me explain. After the grain is in the MT, and before the underlet begins, I place the mashcap so it rests on the top of the return manifold. Depending on the manifold extension length, the cap sits right at about the 7 gallon mark. During the underlet the liquid will rise up under the mashcap and float it up to about the 9 gallon mark depending on the batch size, but this is typical. After the mash is complete I will start draining the wort from the lower port of the MT into the boil kettle. While this is happening I can see the mashcap start to fall in the tun as the wort flows out. Sometime before the cap gets down to about the 7 gal line, which is close to the top of the grainbed, I will flow in more warm DO water from the BK into the top MT port which flows out the manifold into the liquid space under the mashcap, making the cap rise up again on the water coming in. I can control this by watching the cap level and varying the inlet and outlet. In this way you do not introduce any air along with sparge water since the mashcap is always floating on the liquid. When the sparge addition is complete, of course the column of water/wort will fall and at some point the cap will again come to rest on manifold. But now air can sneak by the edge of the mashcap and into the grain column following the liquid level down which affords much surface area for air to mix with wort and oxidation to happen. To avoid this you simply watch the color of the wort going through the line to the boil kettle and judging by the color change it's easy tell when the interface between the wort and sparge/displacement water, or pycnocline if you prefer, comes through at which point I stop the transfer leaving most of the displacement water still in the mashtun. This process recovers a lot of the lost wort but also ensures no liquid that has made contact with air goes to the BK.
This may seem to some like overkill but more care is necessary here since I use no oxygen scavengers but instead nitrogen purging of the entire system. Since there is no active protection it is important to go to greater lengths to avoid any oxygen ingress. Even though it might sound complicated, with this setup it's all very easy, fast and also comparatively inexpensive to setup and run.
 
IslandLizard said:
At $36 a roll (plus shipping) that stuff isn't cheap!
Does it hold up well on silicone hoses, given the constant bending, washing, etc.?
Click to expand...

It seems to hold up very well. I have hoses wrapped this way that have been in service 6 months now and they are fine. You can see these very ones in one of my posts above. Longevity does depend on prepping the hoses correctly though.

First put the fittings on the hose ends. without clamps, so they are expanded already as the teflon tape is not as flexible as the silicone. Then wipe the exterior of the hose with acetone a couple times and also your fingers before application to keep skin oils off. Next wrap the tubing starting at one fitting and trim the tape so the end is flush. Overlap the tape by 1/2 of it's width. Lastly lock in place with a couple turns of vinyl tape, over the ends where the clamps will sit and affix the clamps.
 
Haha I had that downloaded already from months ago.
Do you happen to know which thing on that chart is the usual material of "silicone" tubing used for brewing? Dimethylsilicone rubber?
Not that it matters I guess, just curious.
 

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