British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[gbx]

To be clear, I'm wondering about repitching the wy1968 from the 1.064 beer into a 1.035 bitter. I'm hoping it ferments out ok and hasn't changed too much. In a low grav beer, it will suck if it decides to ferment out super clean to 85%. I normally would buy a new pack of yeast but i won't get a chance to go to the LHBS before brewing so its either re-use the 1968 or break into the nottingham, s-04 or us-05 packs I have in the fridge for emergencies.

...the 1.064 beer is a golden promise/EKG smash(english ipa?) with 6oz of 6.5%AA EKG split between FW, 45, 30, 15 and 2oz at 0. It fermented down to 1.012 in 4 days at 65F ambient temp. I kegged it last night and its nice...really malty, the 7% alcohol is barely perceivable, there is a good amount of bitterness but the hops aren't nearly as prominent as I would have thought. ...and I collected 2 mason jars full of clean yeast for the weekend if i decide to go that way.

I brewed a 1.037 mild with the yeast from the 1.064 SMaSH (harvested from the bottom of a primary only ferment) It turned out really nice but...it definitely isn't the same wy1968 it was a couple pitches ago. It didn't floc out nearly as well and not near as malty. It is still malty but not the same...its almost like Danstar Windsor in terms of malt profile and flocculation - when i first kegged it there were dusty bits of yeast in the head and it had a musty yeast taste I get from Windsor fermented beers rather than the bready yeast taste i get from wy1968 when try hydrometer samples. Its been in the keg fridge for 4 days now and its clearing nicely but not crystal clear right out of the carboy that I get from fresh pitches of 1968.

 

[poley]

Are you washing the yeast, or just pitching on the cake? You might be unintentionally selecting for lower flocculating yeast, and/or overpitching. I don't have all the details of your process, just asking questions, so if you're doing neither, someone else might have some ideas with that strain.

 

[gbx]

Are you washing the yeast, or just pitching on the cake? You might be unintentionally selecting for lower flocculating yeast, and/or overpitching. I don't have all the details of your process, just asking questions, so if you're doing neither, someone else might have some ideas with that strain.

I did a primary only ferment in a carboy. I kegged on day 10, sanitized the mouth of the carboy, swished the last bit of beer around to stir up the cake and then poured it into mason jars. I put the mason jars in the fridge until the yeast cake had settled again, poured the beer off and replaced with boiled and chilled water and swirled it all up again. 4 days later when I brewed, I took the jars out of the fridge, dumped the water off, replaced with a bit more pre-boiled water, swirled around to break up the cake and dumped it in the fermenter. I used the pitching rate calc to approximate how much I needed.

In the past, I've tried to top crop 1968 but haven't had much luck with it. It doesn't leave the big floaty krausen something like 1318 does. 1968 is a strain that seems to mutate very fast and I think the >6.5% ABV beer would have had a greater impact on the repitch than the process. Any thoughts? Maybe its a multistrain? I wonder if you had a conical if you could harvest the early flocc'ers and get it back to the way it was. ...I have since retired that pitch and bought a fresh smack pack for my last brew.

 

[mcbethenstein]

Ok guys. I've read through most of the thread and skimmed the rest. Here is my situation. I am currently fermenting a Northern English Brown using WLP007. It was recommended by the staff at NB-Milwaukee. I'm going for a traditional northern brown, with a hint of esters, but mainly malty nuttiness. I brewed Friday night. Chilled to 65. Oxygenated with pure O2 for 90 seconds. Pitched a 2L starter. Placed bucket in my chilly brew room with a comforter wrapped around it. The next day it was hanging around 64.5 and active so I opened the cover for an open fermentation. Krausen was small, but I skimmed what I could and carefully stirred in the yeast.... Man is that stuff chunky. By Sunday morning the temp was up to 68 and the brew was rolling, but the krausen was all but gone, so I put the cover & airlock back on. Monday temp was down to 63. (My brew room sits at 58-60 in the winter.) Since my swamp cooler and fish tank heater are currently occupied with a Hefe, I went to the store and got another heater to fashion a second swamp cooler. My issue is this.... When I put the fermenter in the swamp I did a gravity reading and it was at 1.016 or 1.018... I can't remember which, but the sample was ridiculously fruity. A taste that I know most in this thread are striving for, but I am looking for barely noticeable and in style for a northern brown. Diacetyl was minimal to none. I turned the heater on to about 68, and will check to see where my brew lies at lunchtime. What is my best plan of action? I keg, can crash cool in my keezer and can filter if I need to. This is going to a contest and my entry needs to be in the bottle & ready by feb 2nd for a feb 13-16 judging. The malt profile in my sample was great, and the hopping was right on, but the esters were overwhelming. I know it is super young, and I expect it to finish in the next few days dropping 2-8 more points. I mashed at 155 at 1.4 qt/lb and by 1/2 hour temp dipped to 152. I infused 2 L of boiling water to bring temp up to 156-157 and at the end of my hour temp was at 154. OG for 5.6 gal batch was at 1.049. I'm not sure what to expect for attenuation with my mash profile... But I'm guessing a FG of 1.013 or 1.014. Suggestions or experiences with 007 would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[14thstreet]

I never used 007 before but it seems like you did a number of things to limit ester production. It's still young so maybe just time? I think with NEB you can be a bit short on carbonation if you need to bottle before the end of the week or next to mellow those esters out. I assume you are bottle conditioning and not bottling from a keg. Good luck at Midwinter, I'm still debating my stout - haven't tried it yet!

 

[mcbethenstein]

I never used 007 before but it seems like you did a number of things to limit ester production. It's still young so maybe just time? I think with NEB you can be a bit short on carbonation if you need to bottle before the end of the week or next to mellow those esters out. I assume you are bottle conditioning and not bottling from a keg. Good luck at Midwinter, I'm still debating my stout - haven't tried it yet!

I was planning on bottling from keg, the last few times I bottled a few and kegged the rest I got those gushers. I think my coopers carb drops may be a source of contamination. If I can keg by the 27th I can get it carbed up in time to bottle a few on the 1st and drop off for midwinter on the 2nd. Should I just let it ride on the warm yeast for a few days then crash & keg? I did try for a clean ferment profile... Except for my open fermentation time. I want clean & complex.

 

[14thstreet]

You've got nothing to lose as the beer is only 4-5 days old.

 

[chrisdb]

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[jwalker1140]

I should have listened to bierhaus15 back in post #2 re: wy1968 and bottling, but I guess some lessons have to be learned the hard way. I made Common Room ESB with 1968 a couple months ago and when I bottled it tasted fantastic. Like, one-of-the-best-beers-I've-ever-brewed fantastic. After conditioning for ~3 weeks the beer had lost some of it's malt character and it had a very slight cider taste (which has started to mellow after a couple more weeks).

Anyway, I'm not set up to keg so can someone recommend a strain I should try in place of wy1968? I've seen positive comments about wy1318 so I'm leaning toward that at the moment. My plan is to use it mostly in English and American pale ales. Thanks!

 

[terrapinj]

Has anyone experienced the above issue naturally carbing a keg with 1968?

 

[rockfish42]

I don't keg condition, however there is recipe in Gordon Strong's book that uses 1968 and instructs you to prime the keg. I have a sneaking suspicion that handling has more to do with restarting the fermentation after packaging, as I never had the issue mentioned in this thread when I lived in a relatively cool location ~60F most days.

 

[jwalker1140]

I have a sneaking suspicion that handling has more to do with restarting the fermentation after packaging, as I never had the issue mentioned in this thread when I lived in a relatively cool location ~60F most days.

Could you expand on this? I like how 1968 performs and I love how it tastes at bottling time so I'm willing to change my process but I'm not sure where to start.

I cold crash to 40F for a couple days and bottle cold. I primed with table sugar to 2.6 vols and I let it condition for ~3 weeks at ~70F. Maybe I shouldn't have carbed so high, but I think I read somewhere that English beers are often carbed higher when they're bottled than when they're served from keg/cask.

 

[rockfish42]

I used to live about 100ft from the Pacific Ocean near SF, I think the fact that the temp remained so low and even didn't allow my bottled beers to strip additional flavor after initial conditioning. British cellar temps being 50-57F, AFAIK conditioning takes place at those temps. It would be interesting to try conditioning with 1968 in bottle at the low end of that range and see if it stopped the problem.

 

[wailingguitar]

-wy1187. Awesome yeast, you can get a very clean tasting beer with lots of English character. I like fermenting this one in buckets and will top crop it before high krausen. Yeast rousing works great on this one. Does not like lots of top pressure and does well with the fermenter lid put on lightly. I pitch at 65F let rise to 68-70F for a week then D-rest and crash cool by day 14 or so. I get good attenuation with this one, 75-85%. Hops come through really well. Ages well.

.....

I pitch a one quart starter for a 4 gallon batch and oxygenate around 8-12 ppm. I find I get a better malt/ester profile when I pitch a bit below ferment temp and let it rise up to around 70F for D rest before I crash cool to flocc all the yeast out. Malt profile stays intact. I typically don't go more than 3 weeks in primary, with average around 2 weeks total. I start drinking them about 2 weeks in the keg with the best flavor right around the 3 week/one month mark for best bitter/ESB. Hoppier beers i drink earlier, darker ones later.

Well I hope this helps someone.

I've worked with open fermenters commercially and have done a number of comparisons between open ferms vs Unitanks and have a couple questions about the reason behind some of your procedures...

You say you crop 1187 "before high krausen". Why so early? Generally the yeast is harvested during fermentation when the beer is about 1/2 done (as opposed to harvesting from a Unitank post fermentation).

You mention cropping, then also mention making starters. Do you only crop 1187? Or are you cropping and then making a starter? If you crop and then make a starter, why aren't you just harvesting a pitchable quantity in the first place?


EDIT: DUH, didn't realize this was an old/long thread when I posted

 

[jwalker1140]

I used to live about 100ft from the Pacific Ocean near SF, I think the fact that the temp remained so low and even didn't allow my bottled beers to strip additional flavor after initial conditioning. British cellar temps being 50-57F, AFAIK conditioning takes place at those temps. It would be interesting to try conditioning with 1968 in bottle at the low end of that range and see if it stopped the problem.

Interesting. Sounds plausible. The only way I could do that would be to keep them in my fermentation fridge, which usually has a carboy in it, so I probably need to focus on finding a yeast that works better at normal carb temps. Thanks for the reply.

 

[dyqik]

Thanks everyone who has contributed to this thread. As a result, I'm very pleased with the best bitter and porter that I've done with WLP002/WY1968.

Can I check what I learnt from this thread against the current thoughts? I've fermented both the bitter and porter from a 0.8l starter (80g DME to 800ml water) in 5.5 gallon batches, starting at 64F, rising to 67-68F for the high krausen portion of fermentation, and then cooled back to 65F after the bulk of fermentation has completed (based on airlock bubble rates, and a check with the hydrometer in the case of the porter). I've not tasted any diacetyl in the beers, so I haven't done a D-rest.

I tried to naturally carb the bitter, but my improvised pressure barrel didn't seal well enough, so it's now kegged and force carbed there (6psi at 55F for 1.4-1.5 vols CO2). I think this has toned down some of the excess fruitiness in the beer. The porter is still in the primary fermenter (just over a week since I brewed it, but at 1.020 from 1.064 on Saturday (5 days in), and tasting good).

 

[caskman]

I trained at a brewery that open fermented. 3 day fermentation. Started at 68. They let it get to 71 then take it back to 68. They continued this cycle until it was done. They would stop fermentation where they wanted the gravity to finish. Maybe 1.014. Or 1.009. It would ferment pretty dry if you let it. Then take it to 45 one day then 32 if they were going to serve in serving tanks. If casked then not drop below 45. Loved it. I do mainly cask beer now and still follow what they did. Got my beer engine now too.

 

[Beernip]

What yeast did they use?

 

[caskman]

What yeast did they use?

Ringwood. They used open fermenters and submersible pumps to rouse the yeast. Except for brown ales. Ringwood loved brown ales. They stop fermentation where they wanted it. They did this in the Ringwood brewery in England too.

 

[gbx]

Hey all,

There is a lot of love for wy1318 on this thread so I thought I'd post this here. What is the highest temp you've reach with this yeast and still made a decent beer? I have 6gals of a 1.051 porter that was pitched at 17C/63F in 19C/66F ambient temp. I pitched half a pint of a 2nd generation top crop harvested at high krausen 20 days ago. I've done a done a lot of low gravity beers with this setup and its always been a nice under control fermentation never even hitting 21C/70F. This beer has gone nuts, in 24 hours its floated a 3inch krausen and raised the temp to 23C/74F! I'm trying to cool it down now but I don't know how successful it will be. What off flavours will 1318 crap out when it gets too hot? I'm hoping nothing fusel, if its just more fruit I'll RDWHAHB.

 

[bierhaus15]

It definitely gets fruity when fermented in the 70's but I wouldn't think it would produce much fusels since your starting temp was low. I once made a (OG. 1.034) boddies clone that I accidentally fermented around 72-75F. This is when my fermentation chest died and I didn't realize it until after it had been in there for a week... the beer turned out "ok" although it did have somewhat of a fruit salad ester thing going on.

 

[gbx]

... the beer turned out "ok" although it did have somewhat of a fruit salad ester thing going on.

This. Thank you for the flavour descriptor. The beer is good cold but when it warms up it's a fruit bomb.

 

[AT-JeffT]

I've had many batches suffer BADLY from the cidery apple off flavor of WLP002 bottle conditioned with dextrose.

I'm working my way through all 50+ pages of this thread, but can some one give me cliff notes on the issue? Have we found a way to accurately bottle condition this beer without the off flavor(s)?

 

[gbx]

I've had many batches suffer BADLY from the cidery apple off flavor of WLP002 bottle conditioned with dextrose.

I'm working my way through all 50+ pages of this thread, but can some one give me cliff notes on the issue? Have we found a way to accurately bottle condition this beer without the off flavor(s)?

This is a great thread. I think it was decided force carbing was the way to go with 002/1968 and 1318 was a better english yeast to use for bottle conditioning

 

[AT-JeffT]

Has anyone experimented with using a lower attenuating yeast to bottle carbonate with? Windsor comes to mind. I know its flavor profile is poor, but if used just for carbonating it shouldn't be an issue. I am worried about over carbonating with s-05 due to its ability to attenuate further than 002/1968.

On a related note, it's pretty well known that Firestone Walker uses 002/1968. They bottle condition some of their beers. I wonder if they filter and add a separate strain for bottle conditioning. If they did, it would have to be one that is about the same in attenuation as 002/1968. Has anyone contacted them about how they bottle condition?

This is a great thread. I think it was decided force carbing was the way to go with 002/1968 and 1318 was a better english yeast to use for bottle conditioning

Yes, this is the most informative thread I've found on HBT. Its a shame I took so long to find it.

 

[Beernip]

I've had many batches suffer BADLY from the cidery apple off flavor of WLP002 bottle conditioned with dextrose.

I'm working my way through all 50+ pages of this thread, but can some one give me cliff notes on the issue? Have we found a way to accurately bottle condition this beer without the off flavor(s)?

The only consistence was to force carb with this yeast. The 1318 yeast is great for bottle carbing. You could try to bottle condition with wort instead of sugar if you really want to use 002.

 

[Riot]

Has anyone tried priming with extract? I've got a starter ready to go grown from this years Fullers vintage ale, and at least two batches planned for it. I don't have a keg setup and I really don't want to put off brewing tomorrow to use something else.

 

[gbx]

Has anyone experimented with using a lower attenuating yeast to bottle carbonate with? Windsor comes to mind. I know its flavor profile is poor, but if used just for carbonating it shouldn't be an issue. I am worried about over carbonating with s-05 due to its ability to attenuate further than 002/1968.

I would bottle condition with 002/1968 over Windsor any day. The worst thing about Windsor is its completely non-flocculent and the actual yeast tastes musty and awful. If you put a beer made with windsor in a keg with gelatin and lager it until it is clear, the beer is actually not too bad. I like much better than S04. ...but bottle conditioning is terrible because the sediment is so loose its impossible to pour clean.

In regards to commercial bottle conditioning with 002/1968, I believe they do it without primings but by cold crashing a few points above terminal gravity.

 

[Blueflint]

This thread is going on close to 3 years and it had a tremendous amount of information. There is only brief mention of WLP037 Yorkshire Square in this thread. What is everyone's opinion of this one? I have only used it once and it was a strong fermenter with a big top cropper but I don't remember much else about it.

Tony

 

[CadiBrewer]

I brewed an ordinary bitter with the intention of following kingbrian's schedule of pitching at 64, letting it free rise to 68, then dialing back to 64 when the beer is at 1/2 of the final gravity. I was then going to crash to 40 when the beer has reached 1/5 of the final gravity.

I pitched a lot of healthy yeast and aerated well, so I had an explosive ferment and things are happening too quickly. Within 4 hours, it rose to 68. Within 24 hours, the gravity was at 1.020. I kicked it back down to 64. 48 hours later, it is at 1.014. The schedule tells me I should cold crash. I'm afraid to cold crash after only 72 hours from pitching. My plan is to let it sit at 64 for at least another 3 days, and then child crash for a week.

Has anyone else had issues like this? Should I just go ahead and cold crash now? The sample tasted pretty great with no discernable off flavors, other than being green. My palate for diacetyl is terrible, but I'm not tasting any butter or getting a slimy mouth feel.