Brewing "the hard way" question: Diluting high gravity beer

[cannman]

I'm looking for resources regarding brewing high gravity beer with the intentions of diluting it to make a larger quantity of beer at kegging.

It sounds to me like I'll id have to do is brew a beer at double og/ibu and dilute with equal parts water at kegging.

I thought about this idea after hearing that a lot of big-beer American lagers are made in this fashion.

Primarily, I'm looking to do this to save some space in my fermenter.

So what resources can I visit to help me work out the details of this process or what had been your experience?

This practice is called standardization or blending.

 

[d3track]

Maybe using the "top up water" in your brewing software? I guess it seems like you are doing a large batch partial boil.

 

[Gameface]

This technique will work better for beers with low ibus, as you can only get around 100 ibus in wort and diluting the beer dilutes the ibus at the same ratio.

I've heard the number 100 as far as the theoretical max but have also herd in practice it's hard to get that high.

 

[drainbamage]

This technique will work better for beers with low ibus, as you can only get around 100 ibus in wort and diluting the beer dilutes the ibus at the same ratio.

I've heard the number 100 as far as the theoretical max but have also herd in practice it's hard to get that high.

You could add a hop tea at bottling time if you wanted to get a little extra bitterness in there, couldn't you?

 

[cannman]

This technique will work better for beers with low ibus, as you can only get around 100 ibus in wort and diluting the beer dilutes the ibus at the same ratio.

I've heard the number 100 as far as the theoretical max but have also herd in practice it's hard to get that high.

Perfect. I'm looking to use this technique in the Lagering chamber. Lagering commits your space for enough time that I can deliver several more styles if this technique is used...

but I am worried about the destruction of the malt character...

 

[CA_Mouse]

Try this BYO article.

 

[d3track]

I'd guess you'd have to boil it for a while too, oxidation may be a concern blending it into fermented beer...

 

[cannman]

You could add a hop tea at bottling time if you wanted to get a little extra bitterness in there, couldn't you?

Since this is a keg, I can add a sack of hops directly to it! Great idea.

 

[Owly055]

efficiency will go to the dogs............The higher the gravity you are going for, the lower your efficiency....... and there's really no way around it with all grain brewing.



H.W.

 

[cannman]

efficiency will go to the dogs............The higher the gravity you are going for, the lower your efficiency....... and there's really no way around it with all grain brewing.



H.W.

Interesting...

The last conversation I was having with a previous "commercial brewer" I got wind that I should be hitting the 80s in efficiency in a commercial setup...

I hit low 70s today as an all grain brewer and I'm convinced that my calculations are wrong as opposed to poor brewing procedures as we always hit our target....

I don't understand why the higher gravity beer you build the lower efficiency would go... Given an appropriate size vessel, math tells me this should not be the case....

 

[CA_Mouse]

Interesting...

The last conversation I was having with a previous "commercial brewer" I got wind that I should be hitting the 80s in efficiency in a commercial setup...

I hit low 70s today as an all grain brewer and I'm convinced that my calculations are wrong as opposed to poor brewing procedures as we always hit our target....

I don't understand why the higher gravity beer you build the lower efficiency would go... Given an appropriate size vessel, math tells me this should not be the case....

The problem is that the amount of water increases only minimally, while the grain weight increases significantly. Thus less sugars are pulled from the grain and we get a lower efficiency. To make up for that loss, you can do a partigyle and get the remaining sugars in a second smaller beer.

 

[thekraken]

Funny, I listened to The Jamil Show today and they talked about this, this was the first time I'd heard of the concept.

By what factor are you thinking of diluting your finished batch?

You could mash like you're targeting a normal preboil gravity but then boil the crap out of it for a couple extra hours to condense it to fit in a smaller container. You'd get more maillard reaction and things doing it that way.

As to the lower efficiency, extract efficiency is partly a function of grain to water ratio. The more water in the tun, the more sugar it can wash off the grain. For example, (theoretically and all other things being equal) if you always mash in at a certain water:grain ratio like 1.5 qt/lb, your first runnings from any given batch should always be the same gravity regardless of quantity of grains. BUT we usually target a certain pre-boil volume that is not dependant on the grain quantity, so we sparge at increasingly lower water:grain ratios as grain increases. So given two batches of beer of the same batch size, one with a 5lb grain, the other 15lb of grain, you’d wash the sugars off the 5lbs of grain with a lot of water, while you would wash the sugars off of the 15lb of grain with just a wee little bit of water (proportionately). That wee little bit of water that you used to wash the 15lbs of grain just can't take up all that extra sugar and some will get left behind.

Think about it this way: If you have a little bit of... poo on your hand you can wash it off with a little bit of water. If you got a lot of poo on your hand you got to wash it off with a lot of water. If you try to wash a lot of poo off your hand with just a little bit water your gunna leave some poo behind on your hand......... yeah it's time to hit the sack.

 

[eman_resu]

Think about it this way: If you have a little bit of... poo on your hand you can wash it off with a little bit of water. If you got a lot of poo on your hand you got to wash it off with a lot of water. If you try to wash a lot of poo off your hand with just a little bit water your gunna leave some poo behind on your hand......... yeah it's time to hit the sack.

This is great stuff. I have nothing to add to the conversation, though. But it's just.....beautiful

 

[Owly055]

Interesting...

The last conversation I was having with a previous "commercial brewer" I got wind that I should be hitting the 80s in efficiency in a commercial setup...

I hit low 70s today as an all grain brewer and I'm convinced that my calculations are wrong as opposed to poor brewing procedures as we always hit our target....

I don't understand why the higher gravity beer you build the lower efficiency would go... Given an appropriate size vessel, math tells me this should not be the case....

Efficiency goes down because you have a higher concentration of sugar in your wort. The result is that you leave more sugar in the grain........ The more water you run through the grain, the more sugar you will extract........ If you want maximum efficiency, you sparge more and boil off more......... it's common sense. Micro brewers often use extract to bump up gravity when brewing things like barley wine because of this.

H.W.

 

[cannman]

Funny, I listened to The Jamil Show today and they talked about this, this was the first time I'd heard of the concept.

I've listen to that episode too! It stuck with me and it came up a few nights ago while pondering the use of space in my garage.

By what factor are you thinking of diluting your finished batch?

I'd like to shoot for 1 to 1. Brew 5 gallons, dilute to 10 gallons. I'm really shooting to brew lagers in this way, German Pils and Bohemian Pils to start. The gravity isn't that high to begin with so I'm thinking I should be able to double the recipe in BeerSmith and allow it to compensate for the extra grain bill due to the efficiency loss (according to everyone here).

You could mash like you're targeting a normal preboil gravity but then boil the crap out of it for a couple extra hours to condense it to fit in a smaller container. You'd get more maillard reaction and things doing it that way.

Hmmm this may not be desirable in German/Czech regional beers

.

Think about it this way: If you have a little bit of... poo on your hand you can wash it off with a little bit of water. If you got a lot of poo on your hand you got to wash it off with a lot of water. If you try to wash a lot of poo off your hand with just a little bit water your gunna leave some poo behind on your hand......... yeah it's time to hit the sack.

This belongs on a MEME somewhere... I'll take care of that....

 

[Owly055]

My approach in your case would be to use a significant amount of DME....... There is no rule that says you can't include extract in a recipe. Take a 5 gallon recipe, plug it into your software....then double your specialty grains, cutting back your base malts to achieve the same gravity. Then switch to a 10 gallon brew, and add various DME and / or LME to hit the same OG, watching the SRM to get a color match with the original brew.

This would be a piece of cake on Brewer's Friend....... the software I use most....

There is in my opinion no valid reason to mash twice the grain plus a significant amount more to make up your efficiency loss............ Keep it simple!! It will be far easier to predict what your finished product will be. Mashing far more grain to accomplish this will be a "crap shoot"........ You won't know what your efficiency will be until you try it. You're dealing not only with reduced efficiency but with unpredictable results.


H.W.

 

[cannman]

My approach in your case would be to use a significant amount of DME....... There is no rule that says you can't include extract in a recipe. Take a 5 gallon recipe, plug it into your software....then double your specialty grains, cutting back your base malts to achieve the same gravity. Then switch to a 10 gallon brew, and add various DME and / or LME to hit the same OG, watching the SRM to get a color match with the original brew.

This would be a piece of cake on Brewer's Friend....... the software I use most....

There is in my opinion no valid reason to mash twice the grain plus a significant amount more to make up your efficiency loss............ Keep it simple!! It will be far easier to predict what your finished product will be. Mashing far more grain to accomplish this will be a "crap shoot"........ You won't know what your efficiency will be until you try it. You're dealing not only with reduced efficiency but with unpredictable results.


H.W.

OKAY. I did exactly what you said to do with BeerSmith, no prob... but I want to make sure I understand one technical part of your description:

Double specialty grains but NOT the BASE MALT? Instead, do not add more base malt and use extract instead to make up the gravity? Just a bit of clarification please! Did you mean double the base malt but make up the loss of efficiency with extract?

 

[Owly055]

OKAY. I did exactly what you said to do with BeerSmith, no prob... but I want to make sure I understand one technical part of your description:

Double specialty grains but NOT the BASE MALT? Instead, do not add more base malt and use extract instead to make up the gravity? Just a bit of clarification please! Did you mean double the base malt but make up the loss of efficiency with extract?

No that's NOT what I meant.......... I meant instead of doubling base malt, use extract for half the base...... Or a bit more than half the base. In this way you will be dealing with your normal amount of grain, and achieve the normal efficiency............ You will be adding the DME to the boil....... You can only lose efficiency in the mash..........not the boil.

H.W.

 

[brownrice]

I'm looking for resources regarding brewing high gravity beer with the intentions of diluting it to make a larger quantity of beer at kegging.

It sounds to me like I'll id have to do is brew a beer at double og/ibu and dilute with equal parts water at kegging.

the only thing i'll add from experience is that i tried to increase my yield at bottling by dissolving my priming sugar in 2 gallons instead of 2 cups of water. despite boiling the water for a few minutes, i got liquid cardboard. stale ale i called it, and it was awful. i do not recommend.

as for brewing a double-concentrated batch, it's true that you will lose efficiency by doubling the base malt. since DME/LME is more expensive, it's your choice to add more than 2x the base malt or just use extract.

i'd suggest just buying another fermenter but you're doing a lager... i don't have an answer for ya, buddy.

not to be flippant, but if you were gonna dilute with water, why not dilute with... y'know, crappy cheap watery beer?



now that i tink about it, could you brew 5 gallons of "small beer" from the partigyle, designed to be tasteless, but at least fizzy/deoxygenated, and dilute with that? you could easily just keep it in the keg while you're lagering and then top it off with da good stuff when it's ready.

 

[kwadric]

When blending your finished beer with water at kegging, you need to consider how the new water will impact the brewing water. If you aren't making water adjustments in your brewing water, then it doesn't matter. But if you are adjusting the SO4 to Cl ratio of your brewing water, then you might need to consider how the blending water will affect the final product.

 

[cannman]

When blending your finished beer with water at kegging, you need to consider how the new water will impact the brewing water. If you aren't making water adjustments in your brewing water, then it doesn't matter. But if you are adjusting the SO4 to Cl ratio of your brewing water, then you might need to consider how the blending water will affect the final product.

Ahhhhhh this was question two to come a bit later...

Having thought about this, I would plan on doubling the salts used in the mash so that the water profile evens out when the additional water is added to make the full batch at keging.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Saw this mentioned already, but you need to worry about oxygen in top off water, especially if you're diluting by a substantial portion. Palmer mentions this in the "Water" book, in that even after boiling top-off water could still contain enough dissolved oxygen to be problematic post fermentation, and they recommend any post-fermentation dilution water be run through an actual deaerator, which I know I don't have and I'm guessing you don't either. Now, that's geared towards pro brewers where standards are tight and shelf stable product is key, so you may be ok if you just boil it first, but something to think about.

Edit: Looks like the BYO article linked previously already covers that...

 

[Magnus314]

I've never done it 50/50 with water, but I commonly brew a 7-8% base beer and blend it with water before kegging to make a 4-5% ABV finished product.

10-11 gallons turns into 3 kegs easily, sometimes with leftovers that I bottle.

Works fine.

I use tap or R/O water and don't see a major difference. Not sure why everyone is so upset/concerned about blending or water chemistry post mash/ferment. Just use good water and you're golden.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I've never done it 50/50 with water, but I commonly brew a 7-8% base beer and blend it with water before kegging to make a 4-5% ABV finished product.

10-11 gallons turns into 3 kegs easily, sometimes with leftovers that I bottle.

Works fine.

I use tap or R/O water and don't see a major difference. Not sure why everyone is so upset/concerned about blending or water chemistry post mash/ferment. Just use good water and you're golden.

You're free to do whatever you want to do, but when suggesting something contrary to established brewing science, "this works for me" is not a good enough justification unless accompanied with "YMMV" or the like.

Point is, just because YOU can't taste the difference doesn't mean there isn't a difference. The pathways and causes of oxidation are well established. I don't know you, or your palate, but I know I taste a LOT of beers judging competitions with major easily preventable flaws, including oxidation, that I'm sure the brewer thinks it "works fine".

 

[Magnus314]

Point is, just because YOU can't taste the difference doesn't mean there isn't a difference.

Ummm... okay.

This is exactly what Budweiser, Miller, and Coors do. If you don't like it, that's cool. But don't dog on me, the OP, and about 7 million barrels a year worth of proof that it works just fine.

 

[cannman]

Ummm... okay.

This is exactly what Budweiser, Miller, and Coors do. If you don't like it, that's cool. But don't dog on me, the OP, and about 7 million barrels a year worth of proof that it works just fine.

They are probably cycling their dilution water through a commercial deaerator as previously discussed...

 

[Magnus314]

They are probably cycling their dilution water through a commercial deaerator as previously discussed...

You know the probability that they're cycling their dilution water through a commercial deareator?

That is fabulous!

Does it take 21 Gigawatts of electricity released in a nanosecond?

It's so ( back to ) the future!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Ummm... okay.

This is exactly what Budweiser, Miller, and Coors do. If you don't like it, that's cool. But don't dog on me, the OP, and about 7 million barrels a year worth of proof that it works just fine.

Way to miss the point. Dilution water is fine, if it's treated properly. Tap water alone is not treated properly. If YOU can't tell the difference, more power to you, but that's improper advice.

You know the probability that they're cycling their dilution water through a commercial deareator?

That is fabulous!

Does it take 21 Gigawatts of electricity released in a nanosecond?

It's so ( back to ) the future!

Yes. 100% probability that they are deaerating their top-off water.

 

[kwadric]

The big thing about blending water is to make a plan and follow it. The resulting beer might be excellent or it might just be ok. Decide what you think about the beer and adjust your process accordingly.

You also could bottle some of the high gravity beer. Then you can do a side by side comparison of the base beer and the dilution. This might give you a clue about any impact of the water.

While oxygen is a real concern for shelf life, storing the beer cold helps a lot. You double the shelf life for every 10C lower in storage temp. So storing the kegs in the kegerator will almost quadruple the shelf life.

I believe that I've heard Tasty McDole talk about diluting one his beers down to drink on the golf course. I believe that he prepped his was by boiling it and adding the same minerals as the brew water. This is from a episode of the Session from a couple of years ago. To me, that sounds like a lot of work.

 

[Magnus314]

Denny Cann and Drew Beechum did a pretty thorough write up about it in "Experimental Homebrewing". It included a nod to Tasty McDole being the inspiration and had a formula and everything.

Weird though, no mention of adding more minerals to "balance" the dilution water, or using a commercial deaerator. Is that a de-oxygenator, as in boiling or carbing it first?

They mention you can just add the water and force carb it, then drink away 'til it's gone without any problems, just won't have as much shelf life.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Denny Cann and Drew Beechum did a pretty thorough write up about it in "Experimental Homebrewing". It included a nod to Tasty McDole being the inspiration and had a formula and everything.

Weird though, no mention of adding more minerals to "balance" the dilution water, or using a commercial deaerator. Is that a de-oxygenator, as in boiling or carbing it first?

They mention you can just add the water and force carb it, then drink away 'til it's gone without any problems, just won't have as much shelf life.

I'm not horrendously worried about the water chemistry. For utmost consistency it'd be helpful but wouldn't hurt not to.

IIRC Tasty had some procedure using kegs and CO2 that while likely not as efficenct as the column vaccuum sprayer systems used by pros, was meant to accomplish the same thing. Edit: Looked a what you referenced- boil first, then force carb w/ CO2. Like I said, probably, not as efficient as what the pros do, but still reduces the level of dissolved oxygen.

And "won't have as much shelf life" is because you're.........introducing oxygen. Allowable level for shelf stability is no more than 50 ppb DO, with pros setting a much lower level than that (<10-30 ppb). Don't have the reference in front of me but I don't think boiling gets much below 100 ppb (edit: now that I've got the Water book in front of my- I was incredibly generous- simply boiling at atmospheric pressure only reduces to 4 parts per MILLION), and as it stays exposed cooling afterwards it reabsorbs oxygen all the while. Straight out of the tap it's going to be even higher than that. You do the math.

 

[Magnus314]

I love the scientists and historians on this forum, I really do. No sarcasm. But sometimes they get so serious about simple posts.

Seriously, OP, or whoever else is reading this, just do it and you will be fine.

If you want to boil the dilution water and cool it first, good on you. I use filtered or R/O and I never have a problem.

The diluted beer has the EXACT same mineral profile compared to other flavors and %ABV, but if you're making something that REALLY depends on the added minerals for flavor, add some.

But in the 50+ times I've made 2 X 5.5 gal batches of ~ 7.5% abv "american ale" from many different water sources, grains, extracts and even recipes over the last 10+ years and diluted them back to either 3 corny keg-fulls or in some cases 4 keg-fulls when I've used amylase to make "lite" beer, it's good.

If you have some particular flavor in mind for the end product, and you're trying to match something that 10 million customers expect to taste EXACTLY the same every time...

... OR of you are going to take MONTHS to drink each keg (I only dilute into the keg, then force carb), then by all means de-oxyegenate, measure and re-add minerals, and worry about it more.

But my standing advice for the guy who OP'ed, "can't I get MORE BEER?" the answer is, "Yes. You can."

Don't sweat it. Troubleshoot using all this great advice if the beer turns out less than great.