Brewing sanitizers Virus and Bacteria elimination

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bgmac

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I know this subject has been discussed before. Thought with the current health issues going around. Why not discuss how well or at all if food grade sanitizers wipe out virus and bacteria cells on surfaces.

There is some info online about surface sanitizers such as Star San and Iodophor ability to kill virus and bacteria cells. There are also several posts that these sanitizers are designed to wipe out mold and wild yeast cells only.

What about mixing up a stronger batch? How about mixing a single batch of multiple surface sanitizers (Star San and Iodophor together)?

As home brewers, most of us have large quantities of these chemicals at home and maybe could use them to sanitize counters, door knobs, appliance handles, etc... during the recent health concern that is unfolding around us. Being a germaphobe is a good thing while brewing. I am letting my inner germaphobe out of the closet lately in my daily life.
 

Robert65

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Bleach destroys everything, and is way, way cheaper than any of our brewing specific products. As a household disinfectant, bleach can't be beat. I'd save the brewing chemicals for the brewery, where you don't want bleach in many situations, so the extra money is justified. Not a question of effectiveness (which someone else can better address,) just of cost effectiveness.
 
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bgmac

bgmac

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Bleach destroys everything, and is way, way cheaper than any of our brewing specific products. As a household disinfectant, bleach can't be beat. I'd save the brewing chemicals for the brewery, where you don't want bleach in many situations, so the extra money is justified. Not a question of effectiveness (which someone else can better address,) just of cost effectiveness.
That's one way to spoil the conversation. Obviously I wasn't talking about bleach since very few brewers use it. This is a brewing forum about items we use for brewing. Turpentine, gasoline and fire are great disinfectants also, but that's not what this was about......
 
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bgmac

bgmac

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Lysol, Clorox, pine sol, I get it. But that’s not what I am talking about. It’s like if I had a question about electric brewing and the answer was, just use propane because electric components are too expensive. It’s way off point.
 

S-Met

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I guess you need to address a few points first.
1. Any "cleaner" is better no cleaner.

2. What are you trying to eliminate? Some of what works well for influenza A & B doesn't necessarily have any affect on C.Difficile, NCoV2019, norovirus, etc.

3. Need to understand wet times (sometimes noted as dry times, contact times and kill times). Hospital grade bleach cleaners are 10% dilutions and need 4 min of wet time to be effective against the main bugs we are trying to eliminate. Its relavent as temperature and relative humidity play a part in how fast things dry. If you are not achieving the appropriate wet contact time, you are just wasting resources. The various "cleaners" I have at work have wet times ranging from 1 min to 10 min depending on the solution and what we are attempting to kill.

4. Specific "cleaners" such as bleach are researched and lab tested against specific virus, bacteria and fungi to verify their kill times. If our brewery cleaners are not tested for these "bugs" we are only guessing and hoping we eliminate the vectors.
 

Hoppy2bmerry

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That's one way to spoil the conversation. Obviously I wasn't talking about bleach since very few brewers use it. This is a brewing forum about items we use for brewing. Turpentine, gasoline and fire are great disinfectants also, but that's not what this was about......
I know this subject has been discussed before. Thought with the current health issues going around. Why not discuss how well or at all if food grade sanitizers wipe out virus and bacteria cells on surfaces.

As home brewers, most of us have large quantities of these chemicals at home and maybe could use them to sanitize counters, door knobs, appliance handles, etc... during the recent health concern that is unfolding around us. Being a germaphobe is a good thing while brewing. I am letting my inner germaphobe out of the closet lately in my daily life.

Gaslight much?
 

bucketnative

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In order to be labeled as a sanitizer, which is an official EPA label, the sanitizer has to go through a series of standard tests. The Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act governs the labeling of everything from sanitizers to disinfectants to liquid chemical sterilants (that are not used on critical or semi-critical medical devices - those are FDA regulated). There is no distinction between "brewery sanitizer" or any other sanitizer. They all have to demonstrate effectiveness against a panel of organisms, when used per the manufacturer's label instructions. Here are the test guidelines for sanitizers for hard surfaces (under which Star-San falls): https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=EPA-HQ-OPPT-2009-0150-0022. Five Star Chemical would have had to submit test data demonstrating a 5-log reduction in population of E. coli and Staph. aureus under AOAC test method 960.09.

In order to make a claim for destruction of viruses (or other certain microorganisms) they would have to follow specific tests demonstrating the effectiveness against viruses. Then the product would be registered as a "disinfectant."

Now, just because something isn't labeled as a disinfectant, doesn't mean it won't kill viruses; it just means that the company has not registered that chemical with the EPA as a disinfectant (virucide).

The EPA definitions of various chemicals can be found here: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=EPA-HQ-OPPT-2009-0150-0034

Will Star-San kill viruses???... I have no idea.
 

bucketnative

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4. Specific "cleaners" such as bleach are researched and lab tested against specific virus, bacteria and fungi to verify their kill times. If our brewery cleaners are not tested for these "bugs" we are only guessing and hoping we eliminate the vectors.
Bleach is not labeled as a "cleaner". It is registered with the EPA as a "disinfectant" because it has been shown to be effective against standard panels of bacteria, viruses, and fungi. If you look at some labels of bleach products, they will make claims against specific viruses, which means they have tested those specific viruses.
 

S-Met

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Bleach is not labeled as a "cleaner". It is registered with the EPA as a "disinfectant" because it has been shown to be effective against standard panels of bacteria, viruses, and fungi. If you look at some labels of bleach products, they will make claims against specific viruses, which means they have tested those specific viruses.
The bottle of Bleach i have on my shelf at home as well as the bottles bleach I have at work as well as all of the bleach wipes I have at work will gladly beg to differ in your assessment of the term "cleaner." However, I feel posting pics of said "cleaner" labels to be a frivolous task that would not add any value to the discussion.

Bleach can be a disinfectant once a specific concentration in achieved at a specified wet time. But at lesser concentrations and/or wet time, it's just a cleaner.
 
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bgmac

bgmac

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COVID-19 is classified as an enveloped virus similar to influenza A and B. Which means, that when on surfaces, the virus is protected by a protein layer. CDC and many other organizations are making assumptions that typical disinfectants and sanitizers that kill influenza will also kill COVID-19 based on the enveloped similarity, since they haven't had the time test. I would rather use a substance other then bleach due to the film and bleaching/staining that occur.

Acid based solutions such as Star San usually have a PH lower then 3.5 and are reported to penetrate the protein layer fairly well. As stated, the problem is that it has not been tested by EPA, CDC, FDA, etc.. to be classified as a disinfectant. The inventor states that Star San is a killer of gram positive and gram negative bacteria and viruses. Could be effective with long contact time.
 

Hoppy2bmerry

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COVID-19 is classified as an enveloped virus similar to influenza A and B. Which means, that when on surfaces, the virus is protected by a protein layer. CDC and many other organizations are making assumptions that typical disinfectants and sanitizers that kill influenza will also kill COVID-19 based on the enveloped similarity, since they haven't had the time test. I would rather use a substance other then bleach due to the film and bleaching/staining that occur.

Acid based solutions such as Star San usually have a PH lower then 3.5 and are reported to penetrate the protein layer fairly well. As stated, the problem is that it has not been tested by EPA, CDC, FDA, etc.. to be classified as a disinfectant. The inventor states that Star San is a killer of gram positive and gram negative bacteria and viruses. Could be effective with long contact time.
The virus is incased in a lipid hence, soap and dawn dish liquid will work fine, according to the experts - just like washing your hands.
 

bucketnative

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Bleach can be a disinfectant once a specific concentration in achieved at a specified wet time. But at lesser concentrations and/or wet time, it's just a cleaner.
I was referring to the EPA label. Every disinfectant or sanitizer has a specified concentration/contact time at which it will work; that's not unique to bleach. That is why the EPA-approved label exists, it gives the certified concentrations and instructions for use in order for it to be an effective disinfectant or sanitizer. You are right in the fact that if you don't follow the instructions for bleach to be a proper sanitizer or disinfectant.... it will be just a cleaner. But, bleach is one of the most effective disinfectants in industry or the home.

The inventor states that Star San is a killer of gram positive and gram negative bacteria and viruses. Could be effective with long contact time.
Five Star Chemicals does not state that Star San kills viruses. Their label claim states that it is effective on E. coli and S. aureus, which are the target organisms for the EPA-required testing.
 
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