Brewing questions about Mash temps and times.

[jakwi]

Just a quick question,

I'm relatively new to All grain brewing, this will be my third batch.

A year or two ago I bought a twelve pack of Sierra Nevada Tumbler Brown. I loved it, but shortly after that they discontinued it. I have brewed two brown ale's, Slight variations on the popular Caribou slobber recipe, trying to emulate what I liked about Tumbler. It came out good, but not as robust as the Sierra Nevada I had. Part of the problem is I don't even really know how to describe the virtues of that beer. Is it malty? Being new to this I don't know what terms go with what flavors. Maybe someone can help me if you have had that now discontinued brew.

I am also a big fan of 1554 by New Belgium. In many ways it has many of the same characteristics.

I know many people will disagree with me but I'm not a big fan of the IPA. I enjoy hops, but not the bitter aspect. I think that is what I like about the two commercial brews I've mentioned. It is funny because IPA's are so wildly popular that I struggle to find craft beer I like at the liquor store.

Anyway I'm going to attempt a Scharzbier. I'm not looking to clone anything in particular but to emulate those flavors I find most enjoyable. I found the recipe below here on HBT, although I can't seem to find the post to cite it. I was just wondering if anyone could make any suggestions as far as mash temps and times to accentuate the flavors I'm looking for. I'm thinking 155-156 for 60 min. Oh and the Ale yeast is because that is what I have on hand and I don't have a way to control fermentation temps. The DIY Brewpi is coming along, but it isn't ready yet.

Thanks for the help


6lb Munich
4lb 2row
.5 carafa special II
.25 40L
.25 chocolate
.25 Roasted Barley

1oz Mt. Hood 60 min
.33 Vanguard 60 min
.33 Vanguard 20 min
.33 Vanguard 0 min

wyeast 1332 Ale yeast

 

[jdauria]

Just a quick question,

I'm relatively new to All grain brewing, this will be my third batch.

A year or two ago I bought a twelve pack of Sierra Nevada Tumbler Brown. I loved it, but shortly after that they discontinued it. I have brewed two brown ale's, Slight variations on the popular Caribou slobber recipe, trying to emulate what I liked about Tumbler. It came out good, but not as robust as the Sierra Nevada I had.

Sorry, I am not good at looking at recipes and critiquing them, but just a heads up, Tumbler is back, sort of! Sierra Nevada came out with a Fall Variety 12 pack...includes Tumbler, a new Octoberfest, a new Vienna Lager and their pale ale. So get you Tumbler fix while you can!

 

[rlmiller10]

Just a quick question,



I'm relatively new to All grain brewing, this will be my third batch.



A year or two ago I bought a twelve pack of Sierra Nevada Tumbler Brown. I loved it, but shortly after that they discontinued it. I have brewed two brown ale's, Slight variations on the popular Caribou slobber recipe, trying to emulate what I liked about Tumbler. It came out good, but not as robust as the Sierra Nevada I had. Part of the problem is I don't even really know how to describe the virtues of that beer. Is it malty? Being new to this I don't know what terms go with what flavors. Maybe someone can help me if you have had that now discontinued brew.



I am also a big fan of 1554 by New Belgium. In many ways it has many of the same characteristics.



I know many people will disagree with me but I'm not a big fan of the IPA. I enjoy hops, but not the bitter aspect. I think that is what I like about the two commercial brews I've mentioned. It is funny because IPA's are so wildly popular that I struggle to find craft beer I like at the liquor store.



Anyway I'm going to attempt a Scharzbier. I'm not looking to clone anything in particular but to emulate those flavors I find most enjoyable. I found the recipe below here on HBT, although I can't seem to find the post to cite it. I was just wondering if anyone could make any suggestions as far as mash temps and times to accentuate the flavors I'm looking for. I'm thinking 155-156 for 60 min. Oh and the Ale yeast is because that is what I have on hand and I don't have a way to control fermentation temps. The DIY Brewpi is coming along, but it isn't ready yet.



Thanks for the help





6lb Munich

4lb 2row

.5 carafa special II

.25 40L

.25 chocolate

.25 Roasted Barley



1oz Mt. Hood 60 min

.33 Vanguard 60 min

.33 Vanguard 20 min

.33 Vanguard 0 min



wyeast 1332 Ale yeast

Looks like a good beer but I think it will be more of a light porter then a schwarzbier. With that high of a mash you will quite a bit of unfermentables so I would expect a FG of around 1.020. And the ale yeast will give a different flavor than a German lager.

Never tried Tumbler but 1554 has some esters from the yeast so that might be the special something you are looking for. What yeast did you use in your other brown ale attempts?




Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[thesemicullen]

No real help with your brew, but for commercial beers try and find Xingu - a Brazilian Schwarzbier. Quite good.

 

[jakwi]

Tumbler is back, sort of!

Man that is great news! I'll definitely be looking for it!

 

[jakwi]

No real help with your brew, but for commercial beers try and find Xingu - a Brazilian Schwarzbier. Quite good.

I'll look for it, I've heard of it, but I haven't had the chance to try it yet.

thanks

 

[jakwi]

Looks like a good beer but I think it will be more of a light porter then a schwarzbier. With that high of a mash you will quite a bit of unfermentables so I would expect a FG of around 1.020. And the ale yeast will give a different flavor than a German lager.

Never tried Tumbler but 1554 has some esters from the yeast so that might be the special something you are looking for. What yeast did you use in your other brown ale attempts?

Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I used wyeast 1332 which gave me a FG of 1.012 on my brown. I have another batch of that fermenting currently. I didn't quite hit my temps on that one, 149F so if things go the way I understand it I expect it will be thinner and more alcoholic, that is part of the reason I wanted to try a higher mash temp to see if it pushes it in the other direction. I'm open to suggestions though should I change the recipe, or is there a better recipe? I could use a lager yeast I suppose and control temps with an ice bath, I don't know how effective that would be. Or is there another yeast that ferments at room temp that would work better? Thanks for the help

 

[rlmiller10]

I used wyeast 1332 which gave me a FG of 1.012 on my brown. I have another batch of that fermenting currently. I didn't quite hit my temps on that one, 149F so if things go the way I understand it I expect it will be thinner and more alcoholic, that is part of the reason I wanted to try a higher mash temp to see if it pushes it in the other direction. I'm open to suggestions though should I change the recipe, or is there a better recipe? I could use a lager yeast I suppose and control temps with an ice bath, I don't know how effective that would be. Or is there another yeast that ferments at room temp that would work better? Thanks for the help

I have not used it but Wyeast 1332 but it looks like a good yeast for a brown ale if you want a malty one. What was the mash temp on the Brown you have completed?

I don't have any yeast suggestions just because I don't like esters so have stuck with very clean fermenting yeast.

I agree the one you have fermenting will be a bit more thin based on a 149 mash temp. But it is still beer and beer is good.


You could ferment a lager using ice bottles and a bath but do you have a refrigerator to do the actual lagering? Without good temp control I would not do the schwarzbier.

Instead try another brown or you might like a black IPA but just keep the hops to the low side.

Here is the grain bill for a Brown I have. Note the amounts are for a 4 gal batch. The brown is very malty, a bit nutty.

3 lbs 9.5 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 42.3 %
1 lbs 5.6 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 15.9 %
1 lbs 5.6 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 15.9 %
1 lbs 1.2 oz Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 4 12.7 %
11.5 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 5 8.5 %
6.4 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 6 4.7 %


And here is the bill for a black IPA, also a 4 gal batch. This one is malty but the honey malt adds quite a bit of sweet rather than the more nutty or biscuit malty.

5 lbs 11.2 oz Vienna Malt (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 2 49.1 %
3 lbs 8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3 30.1 %
1 lbs 1.6 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 9.5 %
1 lbs 1.6 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 5 9.5 %
1.7 oz Black prinz (500.0 SRM) Grain 6 0.9 %
1.7 oz Debittered black malt (550.0 SRM) Grain 7 0.9 %

 

[jakwi]

That was my thought on the 149 mash temp also, It will be beer, and I'm fairly certain it will be plenty drinkable. I certainly hope so anyway, I have 10 gallons of it!

My previous batch of brown was 5 gallons and mashed fine at 153-154. I think it came out good, although I would have preferred it a bit more malty. Then what happened with the next batch was that I increased the size to 10 gal. and I had some trouble getting the mash stirred and completely wet, 24lbs grain, in a 10 gallon cooler. By the time I got it all wet the temp had dropped to 149. I was already at the brim of the cooler so there was no room to add hot water. I figured it would still be ok, so I proceeded. A 15 gal. mashtun is now on my to do list

I do have a refrigerator that tends to sit around 35f, but I'm not sure how much that varies. It is controlled by the stock thermostat. I'm still a rather new all grain brewer though so I'm hesitant to add more complexity to my process, while I'm still trying to get a handle on the basics.

I am intrigued by the black IPA idea What do you recommend for hops?

 

[rlmiller10]

That was my thought on the 149 mash temp also, It will be beer, and I'm fairly certain it will be plenty drinkable. I certainly hope so anyway, I have 10 gallons of it!

My previous batch of brown was 5 gallons and mashed fine at 153-154. I think it came out good, although I would have preferred it a bit more malty. Then what happened with the next batch was that I increased the size to 10 gal. and I had some trouble getting the mash stirred and completely wet, 24lbs grain, in a 10 gallon cooler. By the time I got it all wet the temp had dropped to 149. I was already at the brim of the cooler so there was no room to add hot water. I figured it would still be ok, so I proceeded. A 15 gal. mashtun is now on my to do list

I do have a refrigerator that tends to sit around 35f, but I'm not sure how much that varies. It is controlled by the stock thermostat. I'm still a rather new all grain brewer though so I'm hesitant to add more complexity to my process, while I'm still trying to get a handle on the basics.

I am intrigued by the black IPA idea What do you recommend for hops?

Here is the entire bill for the Black IPA with a 4 gal batch

5 lbs 0.3 oz Vienna Malt (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 2 47.8 %
3 lbs 4.7 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3 31.3 %
1 lbs 0.3 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 9.7 %
1 lbs 0.3 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 5 9.7 %
1.3 oz Black prinz (500.0 SRM) Grain 6 0.7 %
1.3 oz Debittered black malt (550.0 SRM) Grain 7 0.7 %
10.5 g Bramling Cross [6.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 8 10.6 IBUs
24.4 g Centennial [11.90 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 22.1 IBUs
24.4 g Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 17.7 IBUs
7.0 g Centennial [11.90 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 11 4.6 IBUs
13.9 g Bramling Cross [6.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 2.6 IBUs
10.5 g Citra [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 13 4.2 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml] Yeast 14 -

Mash temp was 154.

 

[jakwi]

thanks,

Maybe if I cut the hops in half it would allow the malty flavors to show through more.

 

[rlmiller10]

thanks,

Maybe if I cut the hops in half it would allow the malty flavors to show through more.

Hey, give it a try. If it is too sweet you can add a few hops back in next go round.

 

[VladOfTrub]

If you find time, e-mail Andreas Richter at Weyermann and mention that you'd like to produce a black beer. He will give you some ideas for a process and recipe suggestions.

IMO, some of the IPA produced are imbalanced and shreak and some do not. Years ago when I began to brew, Ballantine IPA was used as the sounding board when IPAs were home brewed. Taste preference and time change things.

Some important things to a brewer are learning about and understanding the role enzymes play when it comes to producing a certain kind of beer. The process of infusing hot water into malt and resting it at a single temp might not produce the beer intended on. The process is a, take what you get process, based on a single temperature rest. As one brewer mentioned. Resting mash at 155F is going to produce a wort high in non-fermentable sugar. At 155F, beta denatures very quickly, limiting production of fermentable sugar. A-limit dextrins form during the rest. The final product might become imbalanced. At 155F, starch has gelatinized. Enzymatic action changes once starch jells, activity slows down. The mash that was rested at 149F is OK. The mash began to jell and at 149F, beta will be active for at least 45 minutes before denaturing. You lucked out on that brew. Next time you brew, try a rest at 149F for 40 minutes, then jack up the mash temp to somewhere in the alpha temp range for about 10 minutes. Then, run off the extract. The extra temperature rest adds a little complexity to the process. The pro to the extra step is that the brewer is controlling enzymatic activity, which controls what the final product becomes. A couple of things to consider; mash pH is very important when it comes to enzyme activity. A few points outside the optimum pH range of a particular enzyme will drastically alter the performance of the enzyme. Also, enzymes thermally denature. How quick an enzyme denatures depends on mash thickness, mash pH, temperature and time. A thin mash will produce a higher fermentable, higher attenuating wort.

The 4 gallon recipe for black beer looks like a good recipe to follow.

 

[jakwi]

I've read a lot about mashing and before it seems different temperature rests were the norm, now it seems like the most popular way to mash is at a single temp, but as you indicated in your post it seems like a single temp is at best a compromise. Given the way enzymes work multiple rests seem almost mandatory in order to get the complex flavors that are possible. Your post made that click for me.

As far as mash PH I'm basically flying blind. The spreadsheet I'm using says it should be in the right range but I don't have a PH meter. It is on my list, along with a lot of other things.

I think it will start to make more sense the more batches I get under my belt. I've already started to see that with the few that I've brewed. Being able to bounce ideas in this forum is a huge help also.

Thanks!

 

[Robusto]

Oh and the Ale yeast is because that is what I have on hand and I don't have a way to control fermentation temps. The DIY Brewpi is coming along, but it isn't ready yet.

Hi there- Just a heads up on the yeast…

I have had great success with Wyeast 1764, AKA the “Pacman” strain. I find it to be a very clean yeast, and I even make a faux-toberfest that is great- unless they know that it was made with an ale yeast, most people can’t tell the difference.

This yeast has become my “house yeast” and I use it for anything that doesn’t call for a very estery strain.

 

[jakwi]

Hi there- Just a heads up on the yeast…

Thanks, I'll pick some up and give it a try.