Brewing IPLs

[worlddivides]

So I've brewed hundreds of gallons of beer over the years, but I've never brewed a lager before. Part of the reason is that A: lagers are the most widely available style of beer (so I can literally buy them just about anywhere), and B: Lagers take longer and require colder temperatures. But as some may remember from my "How cold is too cold?" thread, the first floor of my house (where I brew and ferment), is extremely cold in the fall and winter. Lately the temperature on the empty fermenter reads between 10C and 13C each morning (50F to 55F). One great piece of advice I got was to use a seedling mat, which I used on the beer that was fermenting when I made that thread (and I made the thread because the beer had fallen to 14C/57F and I was worried about the yeast going dormant before finishing fermentation or cleaning up everything). In the end, I used the seedling mat to get the fermenter up to 18-19C / 64-66F and fermentation restarted (either that or the warmer temperature caused a ton of CO2 to come out of solution and make it seem like fermentation had restarted). In the end, I got 80% attenuation. The thing, though, is that I only felt comfortable using the seedling mat when I was in the house and not asleep. The risk of it causing a fire is low, but I know they have caused fires in the past before.

So I've considered making a lager, either a Marzen or an IPL. But since I've never made one before, I wanted to ask for advice. Just from the IPLs that I've drunk, they at least seem like they tend to use a lot less dry hopping than IPAs (sometimes none?). They also seem to have much more simpler grain bills. For example, an IPA might have 3 or more different grains, while an IPL might just be Pilsner malt. Do they require the same length of time lagering as more traditional lagers? Or is that just for clarity's sake?

I've been thinking it could be as simple as 100% Pilsner malt, 25 to 30 IBUs from, say, Simcoe and Amarillo, mostly boil additions since I could potentially lose a lot of whirlpool/hopstand hop flavor and aroma over the lagering period, fermented at 10C to 13C (50F to 55F) with 34/70, lagered for however long I need, then dry hopped for 2-3 days at the end of the lagering period before kegging. I imagine just taking an IPA recipe I've done in the past or one that I've come up with to do in the future and just change from an ale yeast to a lager yeast and change the temperature range from ale to lager temps wouldn't translate over completely.

 

[Halfakneecap]

A mate did one recently, with great results. Majority pils with from memory a little munich ( no more than 5% ), and hoppy, but not crazy hoppy. S189. Really great, enough hops to be hoppy but not over the top, smooth and easy drinking. I really liked it, so i brewed one. 100% pils, chinook, but not too much. Its cubed and will get S23 ( my current fave yeast )


I only lager a beer if im not happy with it straight away. I almost never wait more than a week. I just find if the yeast is healthy and happy theres no need. I do mostly simple, easy drinking lagers though, of moderate gravity ( 1.035-1.040 )

 

[worlddivides]

I only lager a beer if im not happy with it straight away. I almost never wait more than a week. I just find if the yeast is healthy and happy theres no need. I do mostly simple, easy drinking lagers though, of moderate gravity ( 1.035-1.040 )

Yeah, I'm also thinking maybe 4% to 4.5% ABV and maybe a lager version of a SMaSH, 100% Pilsner malt with just Simcoe or Amarillo (or both - maybe even dry hopped with Galaxy) with less bitterness than I usually use in an IPA since the bitterness is likely to stick out more. Since I've never made a lager before, I have no idea how essential the lagering period is and how long it really needs to be.

 

[tracer bullet]

I've been thinking it could be as simple as 100% Pilsner malt, 25 to 30 IBUs from, say, Simcoe and Amarillo, mostly boil additions since I could potentially lose a lot of whirlpool/hopstand hop flavor and aroma over the lagering period, fermented at 10C to 13C (50F to 55F) with 34/70, lagered for however long I need, then dry hopped for 2-3 days at the end of the lagering period before kegging.

I don't have any solutions but will agree this is an important consideration. If / when you do a late hop be sure to get all the air out with a very healthy CO2 purge. I've found if I don't do a good job with this, the hop aromas are noticeably dropped off in a week and almost nonexistant by 2 or 3 weeks.

Also off the top, not sure Galaxy will pair well with Amarillo and Simcoe. Maybe it will but it sounds a bit odd to me. The few of these I've tried, I've liked the more citrusy stuff - mosaic for example. I tend to favor simcoe / amarillo and such for the more classic pale ales but obviously these things are personal preference. If it sounds yummy go for it! If in doubt, take a step back and imagine the day you'll tap this, and think of what you're hoping for.

 

[worlddivides]

Also off the top, not sure Galaxy will pair well with Amarillo and Simcoe. Maybe it will but it sounds a bit odd to me. The few of these I've tried, I've liked the more citrusy stuff - mosaic for example. I tend to favor simcoe / amarillo and such for the more classic pale ales but obviously these things are personal preference. If it sounds yummy go for it! If in doubt, take a step back and imagine the day you'll tap this, and think of what you're hoping for.

Yeah, I've never paired them before. I've used Galaxy with: Citra, Centennial, Mosaic, Vic Secret, Cascade, and a few other hops I'm sure I'm forgetting, but not with Amarillo and Simcoe yet. I definitely don't think they'd clash at all, but it wouldn't be a close match, that's for sure. It just seems interesting to me.

It might be a personal prejudice of mine just from the IPLs I've tasted (maybe in particular recently), but I just have an impression of a smaller number of hops working better and feel like I want to lean to a single-hop beer. Right now I'm just thinking of possibilities. The main mystery is that lagering period.

 

[Jag75]

What do you mean by lagering period?

 

[worlddivides]

What do you mean by lagering period?

Exactly that. The period that the beer is lagered.

 

[Jag75]

Lagering is just cold storing . Wondering what the mystery your thinking about .

 

[worlddivides]

Lagering is just cold storing . Wondering what the mystery your thinking about .

To quote exactly what I said:

Do they require the same length of time lagering as more traditional lagers? Or is that just for clarity's sake?

Maybe I should have been clearer, though. Some lager styles lager for as long as 6 months. Some only lager for 4-8 weeks. I would assume IPLs would be on the lower end of that range since they are hop-forward and you wouldn't want to "cold store" an ale with lots of whirlpooling and dry hopping for 4 or 6 months. You'd want to drink it relatively quickly. Thus my question. How long should an IPL be lagered? And for the second half, lagering is considered one of the most essential parts of making a lager, but what are they for other than clarifying the beer? Before I started homebrewing, I read that the lagering is done to give the beer a "crisp taste," but after starting homebrewing, it seems like that may also be part of the whole clarity thing. I.e. that they taste more crisp with the yeast out of suspension.

That's basically what I'm wondering about.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Yeah, I'm also thinking maybe 4% to 4.5% ABV and maybe a lager version of a SMaSH, 100% Pilsner malt with just Simcoe or Amarillo (or both - maybe even dry hopped with Galaxy) with less bitterness than I usually use in an IPA since the bitterness is likely to stick out more. Since I've never made a lager before, I have no idea how essential the lagering period is and how long it really needs to be.

There is a lot of overlap between what might have been called an IPL and what is more likely these days to be called a West Coast IPA (at least the type of West Coast IPA from southern California) or a Cold IPA. In the 5% or below range, the term West Coast Pilsner might be a better fit. I have made several batches of West Coast Pilsner (100% Pils malt, hopped like a hoppy pale ale, fermented with 34/70...one batch with NovaLager).

For the fermentation schedule with 34/70, I fermented them at 60F. 34/70 is really clean at those temps. With a cold ferment, you might retain more sulfur notes (which are often desirable in a lager but might not be in a hoppy style).

As far as lagers and "lagering period"...you could have a long and cold fermentation with a lager yeast, or you could have an accelerated fermentation schedule (start 50F, and raise the temp a few times), or ferment at ale temps (potentially under pressure). Since you are probably not storing your beer in a cave through the summer months, you can decide how much time you want to lager your beer after fermentation.

I don't brew a ton of "real" lagers, but I find that that the "lagers take a long time" is a bit of a myth. I tend to start at 50F, raise the temps once fermentation start to slow, then cold crash for several days before packaging. Where an ale might take 2 weeks before kegging, a lager might take 3 weeks. The beer is likely tasting good after a week in the keg, and a bit better after a few more weeks.

 

[worlddivides]

There is a lot of overlap between what might have been called an IPL and what is more likely these days to be called a West Coast IPA (at least the type of West Coast IPA from southern California) or a Cold IPA. In the 5% or below range, the term West Coast Pilsner might be a better fit. I have made several batches of West Coast Pilsner (100% Pils malt, hopped like a hoppy pale ale, fermented with 34/70...one batch with NovaLager).

For the fermentation schedule with 34/70, I fermented them at 60F. 34/70 is really clean at those temps. With a cold ferment, you might retain more sulfur notes (which are often desirable in a lager but might not be in a hoppy style).

As far as lagers and "lagering period"...you could have a long and cold fermentation with a lager yeast, or you could have an accelerated fermentation schedule (start 50F, and raise the temp a few times), or ferment at ale temps (potentially under pressure). Since you are probably not storing your beer in a cave through the summer months, you can decide how much time you want to lager your beer after fermentation.

I don't brew a ton of "real" lagers, but I find that that the "lagers take a long time" is a bit of a myth. I tend to start at 50F, raise the temps once fermentation start to slow, then cold crash for several days before packaging. Where an ale might take 2 weeks before kegging, a lager might take 3 weeks. The beer is likely tasting good after a week in the keg, and a bit better after a few more weeks.

Thanks for the reply. This is exactly what I was looking for.

And yes, I think what I'm thinking of making is more commonly referred to as a West Coast Pilsner nowadays. I've definitely seen the same kinds of beers referred to as both an IPL and as a West Coast Pilsner, but I do agree that the ones labeled "West Coast Pilsner" tend to fit the image of what I want to make better.

It sounds like I might want to just ferment in the 50F to 60F range instead of the more typical 48F to 55F range. Perhaps not a huge difference, but 60F is above the listing optimal range for a ton of lager strains, but I have heard/read a lot of good things about fermenting in the low 60s for really hop-forward lagers.

As far as I'm considered, the less time in the fermenter, the better, but it sounds like my typical 10-14 days from brewing to kegging for an ale might be 21 to 28 days for a hop-forward lager, though I imagine it would benefit to some degree or another in the keg at fridge temps (since that could just be considered a continuation of the lagering in the fermenter, though I might only be able to drop it to the low 40s in the fermenter and not necessarily to the low to mid 30s like I could in the fridge).

 

[worlddivides]

I just whipped up a 3-gallon recipe on Brewers Friend.

2.5kg of Weyermann's Pilsner Malt (100%)

6g Simcoe (AA 12%) for 60 minutes
10g Simcoe (AA 12%) for 10 minutes
5g Simcoe (AA 12%) for whirlpool starting at 75C for 15 minutes
20g Simcoe (AA 12%) dry-hopped for 3 days before kegging

Fermented at 12C (54F) with 34/70

SRM: 2.7
IBU: 27
OG: 1.040
FG: 1.007
ABV: 4.4%
CO2 Volumes: 2.5

 

[Jag75]

To quote exactly what I said:



Maybe I should have been clearer, though. Some lager styles lager for as long as 6 months. Some only lager for 4-8 weeks. I would assume IPLs would be on the lower end of that range since they are hop-forward and you wouldn't want to "cold store" an ale with lots of whirlpooling and dry hopping for 4 or 6 months. You'd want to drink it relatively quickly. Thus my question. How long should an IPL be lagered? And for the second half, lagering is considered one of the most essential parts of making a lager, but what are they for other than clarifying the beer? Before I started homebrewing, I read that the lagering is done to give the beer a "crisp taste," but after starting homebrewing, it seems like that may also be part of the whole clarity thing. I.e. that they taste more crisp with the yeast out of suspension.

That's basically what I'm wondering about.

Yes , i would agree that lagering the IPL for a shorter duration then say a Marzen . I brew lagers often . The darker the longer duration is fine. I've done Marzens and stouts that have sit for up to 6 months before they hit the taps. Mexican Lager spends 2 weeks in the fv then transfer to the BT for a couple weeks then hits the taps .

I think your beer would be fine spending a few weeks in the fv then dry hopped and kegged a few days later . If your torn on the duration and want to go longer but worried about losing hop profile you could do the following.

Ferment , keg for however long you desire , add the hops for a few days then push into a different keg . This way it allows you to lager for the duration you want and you don't fear losing the hop profile.

Don't forget to do a diacetyl rest.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I used to be fanatical about pitching big and cold ( 8-10c )for lagers, which is a great way to brew lagers. Since going to dry yeast, in particular both S189 and S23 more recently, ive found they can be brewed warmer than standard, S189 i like around 12-14 ( not exactly warm, but not cold ). S23 ive only done one, my fermenting fridge has started dying, so had to do 15c. It was so good, crystal clear and so smooth, i ordered 10 more sachets.

I always give my beer a week after kegging, then try them. 99% of the time im happy enough with them that i just start drinking them. Over the weeks it takes to get through the keg, it might smooth out a little, but not that much.

Again, i brew lower gravity adjunct lagers, brewed to be easy drinking. Stronger and/or darker are different as mentioned

 

[worlddivides]

Yes , i would agree that lagering the IPL for a shorter duration then say a Marzen . I brew lagers often . The darker the longer duration is fine. I've done Marzens and stouts that have sit for up to 6 months before they hit the taps. Mexican Lager spends 2 weeks in the fv then transfer to the BT for a couple weeks then hits the taps .

I think your beer would be fine spending a few weeks in the fv then dry hopped and kegged a few days later . If your torn on the duration and want to go longer but worried about losing hop profile you could do the following.

Ferment , keg for however long you desire , add the hops for a few days then push into a different keg . This way it allows you to lager for the duration you want and you don't fear losing the hop profile.

Don't forget to do a diacetyl rest.

Thanks. I appreciate all the info. One thing I've thought of maybe doing is the recipe I whipped up where it's just the 60 minute and 10 minute boil additions and a 5-gram whirlpool addition. But instead of dry hopping, I use a hop tube and put 20 grams of Simcoe in that, then put that in the keg, purge it with CO2 before then doing a closed transfer from the fermenter to the keg. Since it's only a 3-gallon batch and will be constantly at 3-4C, there should be minimal risk of vegetal flavors from the dry hopping. It would also hold off the dry hopping until only a week or so before the beer is ready to drink. It'd also allow me to lager for as long as I want without needing to worry about the dry hops (though the whirlhopping would diminish over time and it does make me think I should maybe just skip the whirlhop addition altogether).

 

[worlddivides]

I used to be fanatical about pitching big and cold ( 8-10c )for lagers, which is a great way to brew lagers. Since going to dry yeast, in particular both S189 and S23 more recently, ive found they can be brewed warmer than standard, S189 i like around 12-14 ( not exactly warm, but not cold ). S23 ive only done one, my fermenting fridge has started dying, so had to do 15c. It was so good, crystal clear and so smooth, i ordered 10 more sachets.

I always give my beer a week after kegging, then try them. 99% of the time im happy enough with them that i just start drinking them. Over the weeks it takes to get through the keg, it might smooth out a little, but not that much.

Again, i brew lower gravity adjunct lagers, brewed to be easy drinking. Stronger and/or darker are different as mentioned

Thanks. That's some useful info. I'm also guessing that since I'm going 100% Pilsner malt (2.7 SRM or so), only 4% to 4.5% ABV, and building the beer to emphasize the hop aroma and flavor, I probably need a lot less time lagering than most lagers do. One of my favorite styles of lager is Marzen, but I don't think I want to lager for 6 months or so, especially since I only do 3-gallon batches nowadays, so I think I'm good just buying the pro brewers' Marzens.

 

[worlddivides]

Don't forget to do a diacetyl rest.

I fermented it at 56F to 58F and after fermentation had really slowed down (to about airlock activity once or twice a minute), I started slowly raising the temperature by about 3 to 4F a day in 0.5F increments until it got up to 66F, then I left it there for 2 days, then checked the gravity. It was at 1.006, which is probably the final gravity. What surprised me, though, wasn't that I could tell that there was diacetyl in the beer. I expected that. What surprised me was how much diacetyl is in the beer. It smelled like a butter bomb. I've risen the temperature to 67F and plan to raise it to 68F and leave it there for a lot longer than most places online said (most places online said to do a diacetyl rest at 66F to 70F for 2-3 days, but I have seen a few brewers say they do a diacetyl rest for 7-10 days). I've smelled and tasted diacetyl at pretty low levels before, but that was the first time I've ever experienced it at such an intense level. This is my first lager, though, and apparently lagers produce way, way, way more diacetyl than ales do (I've never had an ale carbed up that had any noticeable diacetyl). Still, I am a bit surprised there was still that much at that point. I don't plan to drop the temperatures to lagering temps until the diacetyl is completely gone, but I'm now thinking I need a week-long diacetyl rest.

 

[Jag75]

What I do is start ramping my temp up when the fermentation is 70-75% done. This is why I love having the tilt hydrometer. The only times I use it is when I'm brewing Lagers. By the time the temp gets to mid 60's the fermentation is dang near complete.

I let it sit at that temp for minimum of 3 days. It's more like 5 to 7 by the time we get around to transferring to the bright tank.

If after a while the diacetyl hasn't gone try cold crashing as fast as you can, maybe even use a fining agent.

With ales, diacetyl is possible, but usually not detected because the style , yeast and temp fermented.

 

[worlddivides]

What I do is start ramping my temp up when the fermentation is 70-75% done. This is why I love having the tilt hydrometer. The only times I use it is when I'm brewing Lagers. By the time the temp gets to mid 60's the fermentation is dang near complete.

I let it sit at that temp for minimum of 3 days. It's more like 5 to 7 by the time we get around to transferring to the bright tank.

If after a while the diacetyl hasn't gone try cold crashing as fast as you can, maybe even use a fining agent.

With ales, diacetyl is possible, but usually not detected because the style , yeast and temp fermented.

Why would cold crashing get rid of the diacetyl? Wouldn't that make the yeast go dormant?

I'm probably going to give it 4 more days at 68F before I test it again for diacetyl. I've also considered getting a Tilt or Pill since they definitely give you a lot of nifty information, but I probably won't get one in the immediate future. Not having one definitely makes it difficult to tell how far along the fermentation is, though. When I went to sleep one day, there was some pretty decent airlock activity, but when I woke up the next morning, it was mostly gone. I imagine the gravity itself hadn't changed much in that period; it's probably more that it had let off more CO2.

 

[Jag75]

Cold crashing won't get rid of it completely. It will reduce it . That cold crash gets the yeast to drop from suspension. Hopefully letting your beer come up to room temp for a while will rid of it.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

I wouldn't cold crash until the diacetyl is gone or to a level you want. Then cold crash it, otherwise, you may be warming up your kegged beer to finish off a diacetyl rest. Not an issue doing this but more days having to wait.

 

[worlddivides]

One thing I found really odd was when I was looking online for info with 34/70 and diacetyl, I found all these threads claiming you needed insane amounts of yeast for each lager, many of them claiming you needed 6 packets of dry yeast for a single 5 gallon batch. Now, I know that you need more cells of lager yeast than ale yeast since lagers ferment slower at lower temperatures, but that's pretty absurd. Now, in my case, this is a 3-gallon batch of 1.038 OG wort fermented at the upper range of the limit, so the fermentation started within 10 hours of pitching the yeast and seems to have ended within 5 days (currently at 10 days and was 1.006 when I last checked), so I'm not exactly worried about the yeast being able to clean up the diacetyl, but all the claims I saw of 6 packets of dry yeast just struck me as crazy. With ale yeast, the only times I've ever used more than 1 packet was for 5 gallons of high-OG wort (with liquid yeast, however, that's definitely not the case).

But anyway, I don't plan to cold crash until I can detect no more diacetyl.

 

[Halfakneecap]

If you were pitching and fermenting at lager temps, i can see the logic of 2 packs, but 5 or 6 seems a lot to me. Maybe over 1.050.

For 1.040 and under, i still only use 1, but i ferment at 12-15c and they take off by the next day.

 

[worlddivides]

If you were pitching and fermenting at lager temps, i can see the logic of 2 packs, but 5 or 6 seems a lot to me. Maybe over 1.050.

For 1.040 and under, i still only use 1, but i ferment at 12-15c and they take off by the next day.

Sure, fermenting at, say, 48F or 50F at 1.060 or so, two packs makes sense to me, but I can't imagine any case where you'd need 6 packs for a 5 gallon batch, no matter how high the gravity is. For the lager I'm brewing, I fermented at 13C-15C (mostly 13 and 14C) and the fermentation started within 12 hours.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

No sure what calculator you're using, but the one I just checked for 3g, 1.038og at 55 degrees say 12.3gms, a little over one pack?

At 50 degrees it's 14.2gm.

 

[worlddivides]

No sure what calculator you're using, but the one I just checked for 3g, 1.038og at 55 degrees say 12.3gms, a little over one pack?

At 50 degrees it's 14.2gm.

I wasn't using a calculator. I was referring to what people were saying online. But since my wort never got down to 55 degrees (the lowest it got was 56 degrees and only for a few hours before fermentation started. It was then at 57F for about a day, then at 58F for 50-60% of the fermentation and at 59F until final gravity before I started the diacetyl rest), so it sounds like a little under one pack would be how much I'd need using that calculator.

Still, needing 2 packs for 5 gallons of 1.038 OG at 50F would mean that ale dry yeast packs almost always include enough yeast for the vast majority of ales you'd brew but lager dry yeast packs almost never have enough yeast for the vast majority of lagers you'd brew.



EDIT: I just tried a sample of the beer 3 days after the last one (with it at 68F the whole time) and it's gone from a butter bomb to just a faint mild hint of buttery flavor where I have to wonder whether it's even there or not (it used to be pretty intense in the smell, but now it's pretty much gone in the smell but faint in the taste). I'm thinking of maybe giving it 1-2 more days at 68F just to be safe, then slowly lowering it to lager temperatures to hopefully avoid suckback.

 

[worlddivides]

Apparently 1.006 was not the final gravity. I just took another gravity sample and it's 1.004 (at 68F). That's 89% apparent attenuation and the lowest gravity I've ever had for a beer that wasn't a sour (in that case, the lowest I ever had was around 0.995 or so). I was shooting for 4% or 4.1% but it looks like I ended up with around 4.5% ABV even though I undershot my OG by 2 points (intended to get 1.040 but got 1.038). I couldn't smell any diacetyl in the test sample, but I really wanted to be sure it was gone before cold-crashing, so I did the mason jar diacetyl test with 2 samples, one at room temperature and one heated up for 15-20 minutes at 150F, cooled it back to room temp, and then compared the two flavors and aromas. But they both smelled and tasted 100% exactly the same, so zero diacetyl. Success!

 

[worlddivides]

No perceptible esters, no diacetyl, no DMS. Nice crisp flavor, though I expect it will get more "crisp" as time goes on. Not sure just how much clearer this beer can even get, considering I can read a newspaper through it already. Only 3 weeks from brew day, but it's turned out quite nicely. I'm quite satisfied, considering it's both my first lager and my first time dry hopping in the keg.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Looks pretty tasty!