Brewing for three years, still a noob

[nakeda]

Hello home brewers.

I've been brewing from kits on-and-off for the last three years, making maybe 10 brews in total, and in general they've been pretty poor. So I've decided that my next brew is going to be the best it can be, and to do that need help to figure out where I'm going wrong.

The overwhelming problem I have with my beers is what I think some people call the 'green' taste, a bit like green apples, maybe with a hint of tea. My last brew I had sitting around for about 6 months, and it still had that taste about it. Now, I've read lots of different ideas about the cause of this and how to avoid it, among them:

- It's caused by an out of date kit.
Have always checked the expiry dates and shopped from different suppliers, so don't think this is it.

- It's caused by using a poor quality kit
Have tried more expensive ones like John Bull Masterclass which require no added sugar, same problem.

- It's caused by using the wrong type of sugar
Have tried different spray malts and no-sugar kits, same issue.

- It's caused by bad sanitation
Always scrubbed and soaked my fermenter and equipment with gallons of home brew sanitiser.

- Wait a while, the taste may improve
Have waited, it hasn't

- Don't use the yeast that comes with the kit, use another one
Surely this can't apply to every kit on the market? Out of 10 different kits, can they all have bad yeast?

So I think I have ruled all of the above out, and figure there must be something wrong with my method. Here's what I do:

1. Sanitise my 5 gallon beer bin (Youngs), along with the long plastic spoon and lid, using the home brew sanitiser solution (about 1-2 spoon fuls as specified on the side of the pot).
2. Rinse 2-3 times with cold water.
3. Open the can of malt extract (lets say I'm doing the John Bull kit that doesn't require extra sugar) and empty into the bin.
4. Rinse can with boiling water to get the last few drops of the malt extract.
5. Add the boiling hot water as instructed.
6. Add the cold water as instructed, up to around the 4 or 5 gallon mark (usually 4.5 gallons for slightly stronger beer).
7. Check the brew temp and make sure it's 75 degrees C.
8. Take a hydrometer reading, and it's usually around .40-.50
9. Sprinkle the yeast on top and give it a good stir.
10. Fit the lid to the bin.

I don't have an airlock on the bin, so the lid will pop up a bit when the CO2 starts being produced, but it's not an airtight seal so the gas can escape. After about a week the hydrometer reading drops to .15, maybe .10 if I'm lucky. I think I once had it go to the recommended 0.05. Once my hydrometer readings stays steady, I transfer to secondary, even if it is a bit high. I should point out that by this stage I can usually detect the 'green apple' taste just by smelling the beer, so it's my guess that whatever I'm doing wrong, it's already occurred by this point.

I should also say that I brew indoors, and don't have temperature control in my house, so e.g. the day time temp may be 75 deg C, dropping to 60 deg C at night. I assume this isn't an issue?

Anyway, after the primary is complete, next I sanitise my King Keg barrel and syphoning tube, add about 2/3rd cup of spray malt to the keg and syphon the beer into it from the primary. Then I seal it, screw the cap on tight and the job's done. Within 24 hours I get a secondary fermentation, and within 10 days or the beer starts to clear. It just doesn't taste that good!

I would be extremely grateful for any insights into where I'm going wrong. Once day I'd love to get to trying my own beer recipes, but feel it'd be a total waste of time unless I can first make decent beer from kits. Help!

 

[malkore]

why would you rinse sanitizer with 'dirty' tap water?

get a no-rinse sanitizer like StarSan.
get a proper fermentation vessel with an airlock.
aerate your wort better...stressed yeast produces more off flavors like acetylaldehyde...the 'green apple' flavor you detect.

'tea' flavor sounds like tannins, but that should really only come into play if you're using steeping grains...and it sounds like you're only using extract cans or bags??

 

[RegionalChaos]

Temp control on the fermentation would be my guess. Different yeast have different ranges that are best for them. I've heard people say green apple tastes can come about when you ferment too hot. On the flip side, if the temp is dropping to 60, thats gonna slow or stop the fermentation. This might be why you are having a hard time reaching the specified final gravity.

I think I have issues reaching my final gravity as well. I feel like I've been getting extract twang in my last batch or two, and I think it is left over sugars from my FG not getting hit... I tend to do an OK job staying in the 68-72 degree range though..

 

[Couevas]

Does the beer tast awful/sour or does it just have a slight "twang" to it?

If it is just a twang, it is the extract and you probably aren't going to find a solution without going to all grain.
If it is a bad/sour taste, you probably have some contamination going on. There are several things you can do about that.

1. Find a no rinse sanitizer and do not rinse the vessel after sanitizing. The rinse water can carry some pretty nasty nasties.
2. Get yourself a bucket or carboy that you can fix an airlock to. Not having a tight seal can also let in some of those nasties.
3. Make sure anything that touches your beer once the heat is off is sanitized thoroughly.

Sanitation is both the most important and most difficult part of home-brewing.
Hope this helps!!

 

[Tankard]

Are you sure it's a "green" off-flavor? Usually this is related to young beer and if you left your beer sitting for 6 months, there's no way it can still be a young beer. I'm not sure what else causes the "green" taste.

The biggest problem I see is your fermentation bucket. If it's not airtight, your wort will be continuously exposed to oxygen which will cause "cardboard" type off-flavors. Are you detecting anything that resembles cardboard?

I would invest in an ale pail. $14 bucks and it comes with a spigot. Affix an airlock and you're good to go.

What kind of water are you using?

 

[Revvy]

How long do you let the bottles condition before you start cracking them?

If it's under 3 weeks that would account for the "green" taste.

 

[irunxcjm]

I'm pretty new at this, so I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but a couple of things jumped out at me.

1.) A 15 degree temperature swing daily surely has to stress out the yeast. Someone with more experience than me might be able to tell you more.

2.) I noticed you added some DME to the secondary. Why? A secondary fermenter is not really a fermenter, but a clearing tank. You shouldn't add anything but your beer to the secondary. (Except to dry hop or add fruit)

3.) I've heard, also, that old extract can give you some off flavors. Just because you are within the expiry date doesn't mean that the extract is fresh. If I were you, I would order a kit from one of the several stores that are mentioned on this board a lot. They usually buy extract in bulk and repackage it. They go through a ton of the stuff, so it is going to be fresher than the cans.

Just my two cents.

Jake

 

[Fingers]

Is the King Keg barrel made of plastic? I've found that if I leave a beer in plastic for too long it takes on an unpleasant characteristic taste. Even proper food grade barrels do this for me. I always rack out of my plastic pails into glass carboys within two weeks, three max.

 

[GloHoppa]

Take this with a grain of salt as I'm a newb too, but after 10 batches why are you still doing beer in a can type stuff? Move to an extract kit where your stuff isn't prehopped or anything. I started out with mr beer doing a West Coast Pale Ale kit and the flavors were a bit flat, so I moved to a full brew kit from Midwest and did a Bass Ale Clone where the DME and hops were separate and you had control over hop additions and stuff. Secondly is your king keg barrel really your secondary vessel or is it your conditioning vessel? A better question would be do you bottle after your king keg or do you drink from there? If you bottle afterward please describe the process, but if not why are you using DME for conditioning instead of corn sugar? That might be the thing imparting the bad taste to your beer...

Like i said, I'm a newb so its just my $.02 but good luck finding out the culprit!

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

GloHoppa had some good points. Your first move should be to ditch the type of kit you are using as I would bet quite a bit that is the problem. I always bought separate ingredients from my LHBS (local homebrew store) when I did extract because I knew the extract was fresh and the recipes were tried and true. I have heard that Austin Homebrew has very good extract kits, so I would try that first.

Also, you will want to at the very least invest in an ale pail and air-lock.

What sanitizer are you using? If it is one-step or a like product, you do not need to rinse it and should not do so.

Finally, if you are interested in a certain style, let us know. Maybe we can come up with a recipe and a procedure that will work for you. Good luck!

 

[Big10Seaner]

Is this for a no-boil kit?
I would highly recommend do a full 60 minute boil using unhopped malt extract and doing the hop additions yourself. What you are doing seems really odd. I would also recommend using some specialty grains.

 

[jzal8]

Late Extract editions...try adding half your extract in the last 15 min of the boil.

 

[nakeda]

Many thanks to all for your comments and advice... much appreciated. answers to some of the questions:

I'm based in the UK so some of this stuff may be localised a bit.
The sanitiser I used is VWP Sanitiser - http://www.beertech.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=143.
I've never heard of no-rinse sanitiser but will seek it out and give it a try.

The fermentation bin I use is Youngs - http://www.homebrew4u.co.uk/homebrew-equipment/plastic-fermentation-bin-gallon-litres-youngs.asp.
I realise it doesn't have an airlock but have read about people doing open fermentations, so had the impression that exposure to a little air was not a big issue? I do seal it with the lid during use. I will look at getting an air-locked bin for my next brew.

RE: The advice to aerate my wort better... how do I do that ?

RE: The temperature control issue, I'm not sure how best to avoid the drop in temperature at night. Is there some kind of heater with a thermostat I can use to keep the brew at an even temperature?

I wouldn't say my beer tastes awful, but it's pretty poor and does have a twang to it. The reason I've stuck with kit brews is because I've heard people having great success with them, saying it's as good as store-bought stuff. (i.e. not necessarily the best beer on the planet, but good, drinkable beer). The reason I've used the all malt kits is to reduce the amount of input I have in the process: the less things I have to do, the less can go wrong The most recent kit I tried was the John Bull Master Class - http://www.hopshopuk.com/cgi-bin/br...roup=jbullmaster&showfrom=4&session=188616637.

My primary fermenter is the Youngs bin. After primary I syphon to the King Key, and add the DME to prime it. (In the past I used all different kinds of sugar, but most recently used DME (hopped spray malt) as I'd read it can be used in place of sugar). I don't bottle, so once the beer has cleared I drink directly from the keg. I use the top tap King Keg - http://www.hopshopuk.com/cgi-bin/br...up&group=barrels&showfrom=4&session=188616637.

About the kits again: over the years I've used roughly 10 different kits - brands like Coopers, Youngs, John Bull, Brew Ferm, and have bought from 4 or 5 different suppliers. Surely this is too diverse a range to be the issue?

As far as the style I want to brew, I'm really not picky! I've had best success with Coopers Stout, since the dark taste hides the off flavours. But at this point I'd like to brew the most simple, easy beer as possible, get it right, and build up from there.

The kits I've used are all no-boil, with the exception of 1 (Arkells). So I just add the hot water, then cold, then yeast. (+ DME if required).

So in summary, so far my next brew will use a no-rinse sanitiser and an air-locked fermentation vessle. What else?

Cheers guys.

 

[WillPall]

RE: The advice to aerate my wort better... how do I do that ?

I use a whisk and just whisk the heck out of it before I pitch the yeast. Works great.

RE: The temperature control issue, I'm not sure how best to avoid the drop in temperature at night. Is there some kind of heater with a thermostat I can use to keep the brew at an even temperature?

Yeast will produce heat, so just wrapping your bucket in a blanket, etc. will help keep the beer warm.

About the kits again: over the years I've used roughly 10 different kits - brands like Coopers, Youngs, John Bull, Brew Ferm, and have bought from 4 or 5 different suppliers. Surely this is too diverse a range to be the issue?

Almost all of these kits seem to be canned kits, and you say that they are no-boil or pre-hopped? I'd suggest trying something like Austin Homebrew Supply offers with their kits. You boil the wort and add each ingredient separately. I don't know if AHS will ship to where you live, but those Craftsman Brupaks that your supplier offers are pretty similar. EDIT: On further examination, the Craftsman packs may not be the best choice. Maybe try the Brewer's Choice Brupaks on that same site. Sorry, I'm not too familiar with any of those kits.

Good luck.

 

[nakeda]

Almost all of these kits seem to be canned kits, and you say that they are no-boil or pre-hopped? I'd suggest trying something like Austin Homebrew Supply offers with their kits. You boil the wort and add each ingredient separately. I don't know if AHS will ship to where you live, but those Craftsman Brupaks that your supplier offers are pretty similar. EDIT: On further examination, the Craftsman packs may not be the best choice. Maybe try the Brewer's Choice Brupaks on that same site. Sorry, I'm not too familiar with any of those kits.

Good luck.

Ok, I will give the Brupaks a look. Out of interest, why do you say the Craftsman may not be the best choice?

I also noticed that that retailer has a thermostatically controlled immersion heater. Would this be a worthwhile investment or is wrapping up the bin with towels overnight just as effective?

 

[Homercidal]

I would not point to the temps beign the main problem. I've brewed in winter here with the furnace kicking down at night, and have still gotten better beers as I got more experience.

More experience means trying new things. Surely you have the basics down by now, so look online for Malt extract (I used DME mostly now), and add hops separately. Go for a full boil for 60 minutes, or add more extract part-way through? Cool wort down quickly after boiling and aerate before adding a Yeast Starter.

Of course sanitation is critical for good beer, but I am not sure that "green" is a flavor I've heard an infection giving. Good water is also very important, depending on the style of beer.

Then again, "twang" is a word often used to bescribe beer made from extracts, but I've been able to leave that behind with more experience, by using different ingredients and better practices. A bit more work, but I think worth the effort.

 

[WillPall]

Ok, I will give the Brupaks a look. Out of interest, why do you say the Craftsman may not be the best choice?

I couldn't tell, but I think the Craftsman kits only include a few grains and hops; they don't come with all the ingredients you need.

I'd definitely try to order from Austin Homebrew Supply before I got any kits from anywhere else. Forrest always has really good kits.

I also noticed that that retailer has a thermostatically controlled immersion heater. Would this be a worthwhile investment or is wrapping up the bin with towels overnight just as effective?

Well, as Homercidal said: your temps may not be a big problem. I'd try a different kit and just wrap your fermenter at night (or even leave it uncovered, cold temperatures aren't as important as hot). If you're still having problems then you could worry about getting extra equipment.