Brewing Classic Styles / Narziss fermentation for lagering

[SuperiorBrew]

This is a spin off of a thread from the new book Brewing Classic Styles by Jamil Zainasheff and John J. Palmer (Found in the HBT book review section) I thought I would be better served and get more discussion here.

They have two things that really stood out when I read the book,
In the first one (below) they are talking about Ales & we sort of touched on it in this thread

In general we recommend a single-vessel fermentation for a minimum of 1 week, and not more than 4 weeks, before packaging. Racking to a secondary fermenter is not recommended except for beers requiring a long fermentation, such as lagers, or beers requiring a second fermentation, such as sour ales and fruit beers.

And the other one is on Narziss fermentation for Lagering.

we recommend chilling the wort to down to 44º (7º C) and racking the beer away from the bulk of the cold break material before oxygenating and pitching the yeast. The fermentation chamber should be set up to warm slowly over the first 36 hours to 48 hours to 50º F (10º C) and held at that temperature for the rest of fermentation. This results in a clean lager, with very little diacetyl.

I had already done several single vessel fermentations by the time I read this and have so far been very happy with the results.

I will also be trying the Narziss method on my next lager. My fist Lager is finally done lagering and I just have to get it in the keg and carb it. I already have the ingredients and my recipe worked up for my next lager. But with only one lager under my belt I wont have much to base my comparison on.

Comments..........

 

[Iordz]

I own the book and found the described method interesting. When I brew lagers I chill the wort to around 42F, then pitch at around 45F, hold it there for 24 hours and let it warm up to 50F, were it will be held for the duration of fermentation. This gives me a clean lager so I have not adjusted the process, "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

 

[SuperiorBrew]

I thought of that too but there must be a reason they choose to do it that way. Maybe it will make my good beer even better?

 

[Iordz]

I see your point. So how did you ferment your previous lagers?

 

[gruntingfrog]

All I have to say is, "If Jamil recommends it, I'll at least try it."

Jamil = :rockin:

 

[SuperiorBrew]

I see your point. So how did you ferment your previous lagers?

Previous lager (I only did one) But I pitched a 5L 48º starter into 50º degree wort, let it ferment for a little over 2 weeks, diactely rested for 2 1/2 days and then brought it down 2º a day till I hit my 34º lagering temp.

 

[Iordz]

I cold pitch at 45F and I get a very clean lager, I usually don't have to perform a d-rest. If I was planning on entering a competition I would do one, just to play it safe, but for friends and family I don't have to. It's all about pitching cold and keeping the wort cold during propagation, this way the yeast won't produce excessive esters or too much diacetyl.
I noticed you didn't rack to a secondary? Personally, I wouldn't lager in the primary. Jamil says he lagers in a corny keg. You should definitely use another vessel for lagering to decrease any chances of yeast autolysis and off-flavors.

 

[SuperiorBrew]

I cold pitch at 45F and I get a very clean lager, I usually don't have to perform a d-rest. If I was planning on entering a competition I would do one, just to play it safe, but for friends and family I don't have to. It's all about pitching cold and keeping the wort cold during propagation, this way the yeast won't produce excessive esters or too much diacetyl.
I noticed you didn't rack to a secondary? Personally, I wouldn't lager in the primary. Jamil says he lagers in a corny keg. You should definitely use another vessel for lagering to decrease any chances of yeast autolysis and off-flavors.

I reacked to a secondary after the D rest, I dont think I really needed the rest, I boiled long and chilled fast, plus I did not smell any but did it anyway as a safety precaution.

 

[rabidgerbil]

All I have to say is, "If Jamil recommends it, I'll at least try it."

Jamil = :rockin:

yeah, i try not to be one of these people that only listens to one way of doing things, but you have to admit, the guy has a good track record...
and the "radio" show is pretty fun to listen to also.

 

[SuperiorBrew]

yeah, i try not to be one of these people that only listens to one way of doing things, but you have to admit, the guy has a good track record...
and the "radio" show is pretty fun to listen to also.

+1
And then add Palmer to the mix and I guess it's +2

 

[Iordz]

I reacked to a secondary after the D rest, I dont think I really needed the rest, I boiled long and chilled fast, plus I did not smell any but did it anyway as a safety precaution.

Sorry, didn't realize you use one. It doesn't seem like your method is very different from his. I think he was trying to stste that when you pitch the yeast at cold temperatures you don't have to worry as much about diacetyl and esters, as you would if you pitched warm.
It sounds like your beer will be good, but if you try this let us know if you notice any difference.