Brewing an ag German Pilsner need help or guidance with water profile

[klaggy]

Water profile is as follows
Alk. 27.1 ppm
Bicarbonate. 26.8 ppm
Calcium. 6.5 ppm
Chloride. 6.1 ppm

Hardness. 23.5 ppm
Magnesium. 1.8 ppm
Sodium. 4.7 ppm
Sulfate. 2.1 ppm
Chlorine. > 1 ppm
Ph. 7.7

My grain bill
11 lbs 2 row domestic malt
1 crystal malt 20L
Hops
1 oz magnum bittering. Slightly less than an oz
.75 oz hallertaur mid boil
.25 oz hallertaur dry hop
Total Ibu about 40
Acid buffer 5.2 1 tbs/5gal
Total mash of 5.5 gal.


Is my water to far off for the style and do I need any mineral additions. Or do I need to cut it with distiller water?






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[ajdelange]

No. You're fat. Might want to add half a tsp of calcium chloride per 5 gal treated in order to get the chloride up which will sweeten, smooth out and improve the mouthfeel of the beer. The other thing you might want to think about is going 100% noble. These beers benefit from the finest bitterness you can give them.

Oops - almost missed it. Do not use 5.2! It won't do what you want it to and will add a bunch of sodium to your beer. If you want to control mash pH with phosphate use phosphoric acid but it is traditional and easier to implement to just use 2 - 3% sauermalz by weight in the grist.

 

[klaggy]

Ty and certainly appreciate your response ..... Sourmaltz would be better...... And instead of magnum.....use all hallertaur hops for bittering too?



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[mabrungard]

There is no need for noble hops for the bittering addition. Their low alpha means that more plant material is added to the kettle and that increases the chance of imparting hop polyphenols into the wort. Your approach of using a high-alpha hop is a far better approach than bittering with noble hops. PS: that is how virtually all German breweries are hopping today. Save those nobles for the end of the boil...as you have in your recipe.

I agree that a bit of calcium chloride in the mash would be beneficial to flavor and it also helps reduce the oxalate content in the wort. Another 15 to 20 ppm Ca is all you may need. While acid malt is traditional, adding lactic acid is more likely to enable you to target your mash pH effectively since you can be more accurate with the dosing. For German styles, using acid malt or lactic acid is going to add those flavor nuances that are more similar to German brewed beers.

 

[klaggy]

Ty mabrungard I was going to stick with magnum bittering sense i already had it purchased. And lactic acid is on shopping list tomorrow when I get home from work....


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[ajdelange]

Martin is giving you bad advice. The best lagers are made with all noble hops. The thing that ruins many of the craft Pilsners made in the US are that they try to use high alpha cultivars for the bittering hops. This really roughens up the beers and takes away that finessed, fine bitterness that they are famous for - the fine bittering that allows them to go 45 IBU without being unpleasant.

Polyphenols argument is jejune. These are lager beers. They are lagered. Polyphenols complex and settle out during lagering. I don't doubt that some German breweries are using high alpha hops for bittering. They are less expensive, it takes less of them and they don't lager for 3 months anymore. The beer goes out the door faster but it isn't as good as the beers used to be when all noble hops were used. Of course they also don't do decoction mashes (or not multiple ones anyway) with the same result.

Actually, what you should do is brew the beer twice - once with the rough hops for bittering and again with the noble. You'll be able to taste the difference.

When people ask why I homebrew one of the answers I give is that it is because that is the only way to get the beers I like. Those beers aren't made any more. Too expensive to do it right!

Added Later: While it is probably obvious I do all my lagers with 100% noble hops and have never had a problem with polyphenols. I don't even measure them anymore. No point. The beers clear pretty quickly too i.e. they are drinkable in the first month of lagering (as soon as the Jungbuket passes) but don't really hit their stride until sometime in the second month.

 

[Hermit]

People seem to think that bittering hops don't add flavor. They do for me. I can tell a beer with magnum hops for bittering and I'm not a fan unless used very sparingly or maybe with another hop.

 

[ajdelange]

Good point.

 

[Braufessor]

Polyphenols argument is jejune. These are lager beers. They are lagered. Polyphenols complex and settle out during lagering.

aj - in regard to these compounds "settling out"...... if a person carries out a normal 2-3 week lager fermentation and then transfers directly to a keg, lagers in that keg, and serves out of that keg - does this impact the concept that the compounds have "settled out?"...... as they are still in the same vessel? Do you feel there needs to be a secondary vessel for the lagering phase before transferring off for the carbonation and serving of the beer?

 

[ajdelange]

aj - in regard to these compounds "settling out"...... if a person carries out a normal 2-3 week lager fermentation and then transfers directly to a keg, lagers in that keg, and serves out of that keg - does this impact the concept that the compounds have "settled out?"...... as they are still in the same vessel? Do you feel there needs to be a secondary vessel for the lagering phase before transferring off for the carbonation and serving of the beer?

This is, in effect, exactly what I do with the exception that I condition in the CC for a couple of weeks after fermentation is over to the point of only a degree or two of extract above terminal left.

When something precipitates that means there is more of it in solution than the maximum soluble amount and material precipitates until the amount remaining in solution is less than or equal to the maximum soluble concentration. What is left remains in solution whether you remove it to another vessel or leave it in this one.

The main advantage to staying in the first vessel is that your beer sits on yeast and stays in the reduced state for a good long time (up to two years). The disadvantage is, of course, that if you bump the keg or try to move it you will have to let it clear for a second time. Also, of course, if you want to take some beer to a party or bottle it you will have to rack off the sediment.

 

[mchrispen]

Jungbuket - now there's a term I haven't heard in 10 years!

 

[ajdelange]

Is it no longer politically correct?

 

[klaggy]

Martin is giving you bad advice. The best lagers are made with all noble hops. The thing that ruins many of the craft Pilsners made in the US are that they try to use high alpha cultivars for the bittering hops. This really roughens up the beers and takes away that finessed, fine bitterness that they are famous for - the fine bittering that allows them to go 45 IBU without being unpleasant.

Polyphenols argument is jejune. These are lager beers. They are lagered. Polyphenols complex and settle out during lagering. I don't doubt that some German breweries are using high alpha hops for bittering. They are less expensive, it takes less of them and they don't lager for 3 months anymore. The beer goes out the door faster but it isn't as good as the beers used to be when all noble hops were used. Of course they also don't do decoction mashes (or not multiple ones anyway) with the same result.

Actually, what you should do is brew the beer twice - once with the rough hops for bittering and again with the noble. You'll be able to taste the difference.

When people ask why I homebrew one of the answers I give is that it is because that is the only way to get the beers I like. Those beers aren't made any more. Too expensive to do it right!

Added Later: While it is probably obvious I do all my lagers with 100% noble hops and have never had a problem with polyphenols. I don't even measure them anymore. No point. The beers clear pretty quickly too i.e. they are drinkable in the first month of lagering (as soon as the Jungbuket passes) but don't really hit their stride until sometime in the second month.

In fairness I'm not exactly trying to mimic the authentic german pilsner but rather using that as a starting point to copy or clone if you will, the firestone walker pivo pilz however the grains aren't 100%wyermann pilsner malt or are the hops. Magnum spalter mid boil and saphir dry hopping. Not available in my LHBS .... The next one will for sure. I will however do as you suggested too at some point. I brew what I like to drink to be honest.
To be clear 5.2 won't work for me here? And would it ever if so when



















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[ajdelange]

No matter - we hope you gained some perspective from the discussion.

As to the 5.2: when does it work? If we interpret that to mean 'when does it do what it says it does on the label' the answer is 'never' as it doesn't buffer at 5.2. You can consider it to be monobasic sodium phosphate as that's its main consituent with a llittle dibasic sodium phosphate thrown in. The phosphate system buffers well at 2.1, 7.2 and 12.4. Buffering is weakest half way between those pairs of numbers and as halfway between the first two is 4.65 you can't expect good buffering at 5.2. Interestingly enough in distilled water it buffers at about 5.9.

If you are willing to accept phosphate in order to control mash pH use the acid instead of the phosphate salt. You get twice as many protons for each phosphate ion and one of those is instead of the sodium ion that comes with the salt.

 

[mchrispen]

jungbuket - quite coincidental that I was tasting a very green Pils just a week into the lagering phase and couldn't remember that term. Green pilsner is just not very good.

 

[Hermit]

aj - in regard to these compounds "settling out"...... if a person carries out a normal 2-3 week lager fermentation and then transfers directly to a keg, lagers in that keg, and serves out of that keg - does this impact the concept that the compounds have "settled out?"...... as they are still in the same vessel? Do you feel there needs to be a secondary vessel for the lagering phase before transferring off for the carbonation and serving of the beer?

Some time, somewhere I saw a chart on particle size and how long it too various thing to settle out of beer based solely on size. I don't remember if temp played into this listing. Not finding it at the moment though.