Brett Secondary vs. Mixed Fermentation

[fivepoundpossum]

I'm curious to hear about people's experiences with Brett in secondary fermentation (after sacc has done its thing) vs. mixed primary fermentation. Do they truly produce different results? If so, what are they? Cheers!

 

[40watt]

It is different. The odd thing is that Brett as primary can be very clean and Sacc like.

Chad from Crooked Stave has gone into great detail about how the characters you expect from Brett is not so dependent on available sugars as it is a product of Brett transforming the flavors of phenols, esters, and...well everything else already present from fermentation and hop oils. All your by products of brewing.

I have never primary fermented with a Sacc/Brett blend. I certainly wouldn't discourage it, as the experimenting is the part of wild fermentation I enjoy most.

 

[40watt]

I have primary fermented with solely Brett, and can attest to ending up with a very clean product. Very subtle and nice. I like it. Have tried a couple strains.

 

[40watt]

This is also why I don't subscribe to the idea of primary fermenting sours with a "neutral" ale yeast like US-05. I know Jamil said it, but I disagree.

I like to use Saison and Trappist yeasts IF I primary with Sacc. I like the flavors these yeasts produce. Even though Brett will alter them to be something different, I still prefer there be SOMETHING for Brett to alter.

Breweries like Jolly Pumpkin, Russian River, Crooked Stave, and Jester King have put this idea to the test, and I like the results.

 

[Calder]

I agree, use a flavorful Belgian yeast as the primary yeast if at all possible.

Not sure the original question has been answered. I've never compared the two, but I don't think there is much if any difference between pitching Brett as a secondary yeast and pitching a mixed primary.

When sacc and brett are pitched together, assuming similar amounts of both yeasts, the sacc will work faster than the brett, use all the O2 and reproduce into large numbers before the brett has hardly woken up. This leaves the brett to reproduce anaerobically, and only he complex sugars left by the sacc to consume. Pretty much the same as pitching brett in secondary.

 

[statseeker]

This is also why I don't subscribe to the idea of primary fermenting sours with a "neutral" ale yeast like US-05. I know Jamil said it, but I disagree.

I like to use Saison and Trappist yeasts IF I primary with Sacc. I like the flavors these yeasts produce. Even though Brett will alter them to be something different, I still prefer there be SOMETHING for Brett to alter.

Breweries like Jolly Pumpkin, Russian River, Crooked Stave, and Jester King have put this idea to the test, and I like the results.

I agree with this. I especially like the results so far using the 3724 as my primary and brett added after 3724 peters out. I call it my Black Bretty Saison. Stopped at 1.030 and that has been providing a hefty meal for the brett B.

 

[fivepoundpossum]

thanks, all. this is all very much along with my own experience and thought.

statseeker, i also like to use 3724 as the primary and then hit it with brett, though i've usually waited until full attenuation of the sacc. do you find you get more, less, or the same brett character if you give it a big meal (1.030 is a lot!) than if it only has a couple points to go? and what FG do you usually get if you pitch the brett when 3724 stalls?

 

[jrfehon]

statseeker, i also like to use 3724 as the primary and then hit it with brett, though i've usually waited until full attenuation of the sacc. do you find you get more, less, or the same brett character if you give it a big meal (1.030 is a lot!) than if it only has a couple points to go? and what FG do you usually get if you pitch the brett when 3724 stalls?

I've been wondering this myself. I brewed two saisons back in November with the same malt bill and both with 3724. One I racked and added brett when it stalled around 1.025. The other I racked and added brett after 3724 fully attenuated. I should know the results in another month or two.

 

[Austin_]

When sacc and brett are pitched together, assuming similar amounts of both yeasts, the sacc will work faster than the brett, use all the O2 and reproduce into large numbers before the brett has hardly woken up. This leaves the brett to reproduce anaerobically, and only he complex sugars left by the sacc to consume. Pretty much the same as pitching brett in secondary.

What if one were to build up two starters: one sacch and one brett. Say I start the brett one ahead of time and give it them 7-10 days, and I give the sacch one two days. If I pitch both of those starters, how do they battle it out in the wort? Would you still get the brett-secondary flavor profile, or would it give you something different from brett-primary and brett-secondary?

 

[bovineblitz]

I've been wondering this myself. I brewed two saisons back in November with the same malt bill and both with 3724. One I racked and added brett when it stalled around 1.025. The other I racked and added brett after 3724 fully attenuated. I should know the results in another month or two.

Nice, I'm looking forward to hearing about that. My guess is there will be very little difference, but who knows.

 

[statseeker]

This is my third time using Brett in a 3724 fermentation. All three have been markedly different in so many ways that I cant really give you a "usually" scenario. One of them with oats, flaked wheat, and brett C, one of them with brett C, wild yeast from grapes I harvested and only wheat as an adjunct, this one is only malt, the 3724 and brett B built from bottle dregs from brett b only beers. But this has been one of the most interesting. The pepperiness that you associate with 3724 is very much there but it's subdued. The malt is rounded. The kind of sour driness that you get sometimes is there but rounded. The brett b is there but not like with a brett secondary fermentation. Its like a clean brett flavor. All these things play off each other so well. Its hard to think it could get better since its been in there since November. I plan to wait until next month to bottle a few so I can send them in to the homebrew comp at the fair. But the rest is gonna stay put until at least June.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[metic]

I pitched Wyeast Brett Brux just after high krausen in an Orval clone. The Brett flavours ended up completely dominating the beer, more than I wanted or enjoyed. I think it was probably because I pitched a large amount of Brett (one Wyeast packet into a 3 gallon batch) while the gravity was still high. Some people might have enjoyed the result, but it was too much for me.

I asked Oldsock about it here, because he seemed to have had a similar experience with White Labs Brett Brux.

If I were doing this again, I would pitch a much smaller amount of Brett and allow it to grow during the primary fermentation.