Brand new newbie, tons of questions, but let's start with my sulfury cider

[kwiley]

This fall is my first season making cider -- and my first season making any kind of alcohol. I've never brewed of fermented or distilled anything before. My main motivation is that I have a large apple tree that I can't keep up with via baking and or freezing to bake over the year. So I tried cider this year. I've made three batches so far and apples for a fourth batch are currently "mushing" in the freezer. I'll press (I have a 20-ton hydraulic press, so that's a lot of fun) and ferment them later this week.

My first and second batches, yielding two gallons each and pitched with S-04 and L. Nottingham, have been fermenting very slowly. My basement has been running about 64F, dipping to 62F as the fall sets in (although it rose to nearly 70F for a day or two when I ran heaters to dry up a huge cider spill, described below). I add sugar to my cider as the pasteurization is cooling down, so it would make sense that fermentation will take a while, but it isn't just goin a long way: it's going slowly. The airlocks were bubbling 2-3 times per minute at their peak and are slower than that now. The first batch started at 1.107 and after 30 days is down to 1.056. A linear projection would take 9 weeks to reach 1.0. The second batch started at 1.073 and after 20 days is down to 1.040, which will take a little over 6 weeks to reach 1.0. These seem very slow to me.

My third batch began as 5.5 gallons distributed between a 3-gal carboy and 3 1-gal jugs. This batch had Cotes de Blancs and included yeast nutrient and pectic enzyme. Days two and three showed practically no activity, not only from the airlock but in terms of "fizz" rising through the brew to the surface. It seemed utterly unstarted in all four containers. I attempted to stir up the jugs to reaerate them and kick the yeast into action, and in the process shattered the 3-gal, spilling 2.5 gallons of fresh cider across my basement floor. I saved half a gallon in the large basting tray the carboy was sitting in and distributed it to the remaining 1 gal jugs, particularly to the last jug which had only been half full to start with. The brew was still essentially dead the next day so I pitched Cider House Select. That had a remarkable effect. By the next day all three jugs were fermenting madly, with the airlocks bubbling every few seconds and the "fizz" visibly aggressive relative to the first two batches in their respective four jugs, still slowly simmering away.

Three days later, tonight, this third batch is utterly done. Two jugs were essentially dead this morning, one was dramatically slower. By this evening the third jug was dead too. I tested them and they came out to .996 +/- .001 per jug. So they simply blew the first two batches away, which are still sitting there very very slowly descending, almost stalled in my opinion (a 9 week projection seems insane to me; should it take that long?). I'm worried the first two batches are sitting on the lees so long that they will accumulate off-flavors before the fermentation runs its course, and yet they aren't truly stalled. They are very slowly proceeding, so I'm not sure what to do with them.

Tonight, I added 1/2 tsp nutrient to one jug of each of the first two batches as an experiment. I will explicitly not do that to the other jug of each of those first two batches, and I am curious to see how the two jugs of each batch differ as a result. As to the third batch, clearly, it is extremely done at this point and I'm wondering what to do with it next, which brings me to the subject line of this post. All three jugs smell horribly of sulfur (curiously, one is worse than the other two). This is the first time I have encountered this, as all four jugs of the first two batches have smelled rather pleasant each time I have tested them over the past month. I am rather disappointed that this third batch fermented so vigorously but has now resulted in an insufferable sulfurous aroma. I don't want to mess with copper, so I'm tempted to let it age to see if the sulfur resolves itself with time. But I have some questions as to how to do this properly. Should I age it in the primary fermentation or should I rack it? I have read that the lees actually absorbs the sulfur, but I thought most of the sulfur elimination came from degassing, so I'm not sure if leaving it in the primary is good, bad, or inconsequential. I have three jugs from this batch, so I could experiment, leaving some in the primary on the lees and racking some to a fresh jug. But I'm curious what others think is the best approach. I'm also unsure whether the aerate it. Some reading suggests I should intentionally slosh it as I rack it to help push the sulfur out of the solution, but of course the main wisdom concerning secondary and long-term aging is to avoid oxidation (and headspace in general), so those two lines of advice are contrary to one another. What do you think?

Lastly, as I said, I will start a fourth batch very soon and I would like it to go well if at all possible. Right now, it almost seems like adding yeast nutrient and achieving a fast fermentation, although very pleasing during the process, may have caused this situation. Should I not add any nutrient? The first two batches are barely alive, so I thought the lack of nutrient in the first two batches might be their problem, but now I'm worried that using nutrient to propel the fermentation causes more trouble than it's worth. I'm not sure what to do now.

Any thoughts on this are much appreciated. There are several issues swirling here. What should I do about my first two batches that seem confounded to finish at all? Should I be worried that their long-term primary lees will ruin them before they finish fermenting? How should I save the third batch with its strong sulfurous odor? What should I do as I go into the fourth batch? Any other general advice around this whole topic?

Thanks!

 

[dawn_kiebawls]

I'm not, by any, means a cider expert so take this with a grain of salt. But -

What are your pasteurization methods? 1.1---, or even 1.07- seems crazy high for pressed juice. I get mine from a local orchard that consistently clocks in at 1.050 (mostly honeycrisp, but entirely 'eating' apples). Most people on here do not heat to pasteurize juice. Consider using 1 camden tablet per 1 gallon of fresh juice to injure the wild yeast present on the apples you're pressing (or just simply press the juice and let the wild yeast ferment the cider).

With juice at 1.1--- or 1.07- you're underpitching yeast substantially. Withhold some juice to make a starter to build up enough healthy, viable cells to ferment the juice. Having enough healthy yeast will help reduce the sulphur production. Also, you'll need to start adding yeast energizer and nutrient before you pitch yeast, and during fermentation if you can smell any sulphur coming from the fermentor.

I don't have much to offer about how to handle it from where you are, but my last batch of cider took a horrible turn towards sulphur. I racked to secondary and bottled the remaining gallon. I had every intention of dumping it all but wanted to check the carb level of a bottle and for some reason the sulphur smell and taste had vanished. YMMV but I'm really happy I decided to wait it out. Cheers!

 

[CKuhns]

Sulfur smell (Rhino Farts) are typically caused from stressed yeast.

In the Future
- As noted above a starter helps by producing Billions of healthy yeast if effectively managed.
- Temperature is important - Cooler the better within the yeast tolerance. Also slows down the ferment. (Just takes longer if cooler.)
- Additional nutrients will help with an OG of greater than 1.050. Look at adding a small amount of Fermaid-O or Fermaid-K and DAP. (Optional)
- Aerate the crap out of your must prior to pitching yeast. - Shake it like you own it for 3 - 5 minutes or stir with a drill and lees stirrer.

To remove sulfur smell and taste - Degas as best you can being careful not to pull too much air. it will naturally dissipate over time but will take a good long while.

 

[kwiley]

What are your pasteurization methods? 1.1---, or even 1.07- seems crazy high for pressed juice.

As I admitted, I add sugar, so it isn't reflective of the initial pressed juice. I don't mind if it is conceptually closer to wine than cider. Adding sugar doesn't bother me, but perhaps I need to do it more carefully.

I heat to 160-185 for ten minutes, although once it reaches that temp in large volumes (two gallon pot) it stays within range for nearly an hour. I realize pasteurization is said to affect flavor, but I have read that it is strongly recommended that hobbyists pasteurize apple cider because it has a high risk of dangerous infections that can literally make people sick, not just ruin cider. Do you think that advice is unnecessary? Should I really not pasteurize and just rely on camden tablets alone?

Consider using 1 camden tablet per 1 gallon of fresh juice to injure the wild yeast present on the apples you're pressing (or just simply press the juice and let the wild yeast ferment the cider).

I added camden tablets to batch 3 after pasteurization, the one that went sulfurous. BTW, that first batch with the very high starting sugar, has never smelled sulfurous. I wondered if the reason the first pitch of Cotes de Blancs to batch 3 never started was the camden tablets, but I waited the recommended 24 hours.

With juice at 1.1--- or 1.07- you're underpitching yeast substantially.

Well, I didn't actually state how much yeast I used. Sorry. Seems packets are almost always designed for 5 gallons at a time. For the first two batches I divided a packet between only two gallons of juice (so I pitched at 2.5X the recommended amount per volume). Seemed like I as already way over the official instructions at that point. But what do you think? For the third batch of 5.5 gallons, I added two packets, which should have covered 10 gallons' worth of course. When I added the second round of yeast to batch 3, I added two packets again.

Withhold some juice to make a starter

For both batches 2 and 3 I made a starter. Only for batch 1 did I toss it in dry. On batch 3, which took two rounds of yeast, I made a starter both times.

Having enough healthy yeast will help reduce the sulphur production.

I genuinely appreciate the advice, but on batch 3, the only one that went sulfurous, I made starters for both rounds of yeast. That can't be the explanation for what went wrong with it. In fact, the only dry-pitched batch (the super high starting sugar over 1.1) had no sulfur (and neither does batch 2). Go figure. Weird, huh?

Also, you'll need to start adding yeast energizer and nutrient before you pitch yeast, and during fermentation if you can smell any sulphur coming from the fermentor.

Well okay. The only batch I added nutrient too was batch 3, and that's the only one that went sulfurous on me. I've read in multiple places that sulfur is an indication of lack of nutrient, but that's the exact opposite of my three batches. Two without nutrient have no sulfur (but are admittedly going slowly perhaps due to low nutrients) and the only batch I added nutrient too (and also used camden tablets on) went sulfurous. I can't make any sense of it.

Thanks. Seems a lot of mystery remains about what happened. My batches are not exhibiting standard patterns, except that perhaps the two slow batches would have benefited from nutrient. Other than that, nothing about my situation makes any sense.

 

[kwiley]

- Additional nutrients will help with an OG of greater than 1.050. Look at adding a small amount of Fermaid-O or Fermaid-K and DAP. (Optional)
- Aerate the crap out of your must prior to pitching yeast. - Shake it like you own it for 3 - 5 minutes or stir with a drill and lees stirrer.

I added nutrient to the third batch, the only one that went sulfurous. But I'll be sure to add it every time from now one (or at least to high OG ciders).

I shake the jugs very vigorously immediately after pitching the yeast. I mean, I don't do it before pitching the yeast. Do you think that's an important distinction? I suppose I might not have shaken it long enough, but it's not like I just pitched the yeast into still jugs.

Thanks, I'll make sure I thoroughly aerate it though. Maybe I'm using the wrong kind of nutrient. I used this so far, which is diammonium phosphate (I believe that's what DAP refers to, right?): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00838XJUO

 

[kwiley]

One question I had was how to age this sulfurous batch that has completed fermentation. Should I leave it in the primary, on the lees, for a while and only rack it after some more time has passed, or should I rack it immediately?

Thanks.

 

[CKuhns]

I shake the jugs very vigorously immediately after pitching the yeast. I mean, I don't do it before pitching the yeast. Do you think that's an important distinction? I suppose I might not have shaken it long enough, but it's not like I just pitched the yeast into still jugs.
Nope should not matter.

Maybe I'm using the wrong kind of nutrient. I used this so far, which is diammonium phosphate (I believe that's what DAP refers to, right?): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00838XJUO
- DAP (Diammonium Phosphate) and Fermaid-K I use together and Fermaid-O on its own.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/improve-mead-staggered-nutrient-additions/With that said for Ciders, I have found you can add them up-front with no need to stagger them.

how to age this sulfurous batch that has completed fermentation. Should I leave it in the primary, on the lees, for a while and only rack it after some more time has passed, or should I rack it immediately?
If you have racked off the "Gross" (Junk from the apples, Yeast and other solids) after Primary (I would suggest this) then your OK to leave the cider on the "Finer" lees for a few months.

 

[jseyfert3]

he first batch started at 1.107 and after 30 days is down to 1.056.

Wow...14% or more if that ferments completely. Keep in mind that everything I've read hear says apple flavor drops and off-flavors go up as more sugar is added, often requiring additional aging time to mellow out.

I attempted to stir up the jugs to reaerate them and kick the yeast into action, and in the process shattered the 3-gal, spilling 2.5 gallons of fresh cider across my basement floor. I saved half a gallon in the large basting tray the carboy was sitting in and distributed it to the remaining 1 gal jugs, particularly to the last jug which had only been half full to start with.

This makes me cringe! Glass shatters into some really tiny pieces, I have personally dumped drinkable liquids before because glass holding them or near them shattered. I don't trust myself to be able to see a tiny splinter of glass in the middle of liquid, and I do not want to drink a tiny splinter of glass!

I realize pasteurization is said to affect flavor, but I have read that it is strongly recommended that hobbyists pasteurize apple cider because it has a high risk of dangerous infections that can literally make people sick, not just ruin cider. Do you think that advice is unnecessary? Should I really not pasteurize and just rely on camden tablets alone?

Hmm, is this in regards to unfermented juice (cider)? Health departments recommend the pasteurization of juice intended to drink, at my uncle's orchard they have a sign that reads something like "WARNING: This product has not been pasteurized and, therefore, may contain harmful bacteria that can cause serious illness in children, the elderly, and persons with weakened immune systems." I do not think the same applies to fermented (hard) cider, but I am no expert. I've seen no mention of that anywhere on this site or elsewhere. Keep in mind the traditional way to make cider is to juice the apples, then let the juice ferment with natural yeasts found on the apples, something that cannot be done with pasteurized juice. This was how cider was made until the advent of pasteurization/campden/commercial yeast.

All that said, I'm NOT saying you can't get infections, you totally can. I've seen in pictures here mold growing in cider people made with pasturized, store bought juice. But as those threads point out, mold spores are everywhere. Oxygen is needed to support the growth of mold, and some other infections. Bottom line is I think that home juice does not need pasteurization when used to make hard cider, especially if you make sure things are clean before starting the pressing process. But others here should be able to clarify.

 

[kwiley]

how to age this sulfurous batch that has completed fermentation. Should I leave it in the primary, on the lees, for a while and only rack it after some more time has passed, or should I rack it immediately?
If you have racked off the "Gross" (Junk from the apples, Yeast and other solids) after Primary (I would suggest this) then your OK to leave the cider on the "Finer" lees for a few months.

I haven't racked anything at all yet, none of my batches. My first batch, starting from a high OG but fermenting slowly, is now 30 days in, still on primary, with a linear projection to hit 1.0 at 10 weeks! I'm worried the lees will harm the batch before it ferments properly. My second batch, starting lower but also going very slowly, should linearly hit 1.0 at 7-8 weeks, so I have similar concerns about leaving it on the primary lees so long. The third batch, which had a complicated start consisting of a few days of complete failure followed by a second pitch with a different yeast (read the long description at the top) eventually fermented very aggressively for 2-3 days and reached .996 but smells very sulfury. I'm curious if I should immediately rack it and then let it sit to age. I suppose it wouldn't really be called "secondary fermentation" in the .99s, it would just be sitting or aging or clearing or whatever the term would be.

So, I guess I'll rack that off. I'm a little concerned that the sulfur won't outgas every effectively with a finished fermentation because there won't be any CO2 pressure pushing the headspace through the airlock. So any sulfur that outgases into the secondary headspace (which of course I'm inclined to keep small to avoid oxidation) will just sit there in the headspace instead of escaping. So, will long-aging a completed fermentation in secondary actually shed the sulfur or is that just not going to work?

 

[kwiley]

Wow...14% or more if that ferments completely. Keep in mind that everything I've read hear says apple flavor drops and off-flavors go up as more sugar is added, often requiring additional aging time to mellow out.

Yeah, that was my first batch. I was clueless. I often sweeten the freshly pasteurized juice a lot so that if drunk unhardened (say for kids) it'll actually taste good. Truth be told, juice in any form really does have a lot of sugar in it and I find that if I don't put quite a lot in, the resulting cider isn't very drinkable -- but perhaps that juice, so sweetened, isn't also a good target for fermentation. Perhaps if I decide in advance what path a particular batch headed for (kids or adults) I can sweeten less accordingly.

This makes me cringe! Glass shatters into some really tiny pieces, I have personally dumped drinkable liquids before because glass holding them or near them shattered. I don't trust myself to be able to see a tiny splinter of glass in the middle of liquid, and I do not want to drink a tiny splinter of glass!

Well, that's certainly terrifying. I presumed any glass, of any size, would surely sink easily (especially over time) and would settle out, but now you have me worried. I suppose I could run the entire process (multiple racks, long sits) and then put the final product through a coffee filter -- at which point it should have so little sludge that it won't clog the filter.

Or I could toss the whole thing -- sigh. It took me a week to chop, freeze, thaw, and press that many apples.

Hmm, is this in regards to unfermented juice (cider)? Health departments recommend the pasteurization of juice intended to drink, at my uncle's orchard they have a sign that reads something like "WARNING: This product has not been pasteurized and, therefore, may contain harmful bacteria that can cause serious illness in children, the elderly, and persons with weakened immune systems." I do not think the same applies to fermented (hard) cider, but I am no expert. I've seen no mention of that anywhere on this site or elsewhere. Keep in mind the traditional way to make cider is to juice the apples, then let the juice ferment with natural yeasts found on the apples, something that cannot be done with pasteurized juice. This was how cider was made until the advent of pasteurization/campden/commercial yeast.

You're absolutely right. The warnings I had read were particularly about nonhard cider and I have read that pasteurization is less common with hard cider, especially if you use camden tablets. I just figured I'd double up on quasi-sterilization even if it costs a bit of flavor. But maybe I'm taking the wrong approach. I'm brand new and have no ego about any of this. Beats me! I'm open to any suggestion.

Thanks.

 

[jseyfert3]

Yeah, that was my first batch. I was clueless. I often sweeten the freshly pasteurized juice a lot so that if drunk unhardened (say for kids) it'll actually taste good. Truth be told, juice in any form really does have a lot of sugar in it and I find that if I don't put quite a lot in, the resulting cider isn't very drinkable -- but perhaps that juice, so sweetened, isn't also a good target for fermentation. Perhaps if I decide in advance what path a particular batch headed for (kids or adults) I can sweeten less accordingly.

Interesting. That is doubling, or more, the amount of sugar that apple juice usually has. That is a LOT of sugar! Perhaps the apples you have just aren't a great mix for drinking? Did you happen to take a SG of the juice before adding sugar?

I'm no expert, but everything I've read says the best juice for hard cider often isn't the best for drinking. Similar to how the best apples for baking aren't the same as the best apples for eating raw. So it'd probably be a really good thing to try a batch with no added sugar, especially as a comparison point.

Well, that's certainly terrifying. I presumed any glass, of any size, would surely sink easily (especially over time) and would settle out, but now you have me worried. I suppose I could run the entire process (multiple racks, long sits) and then put the final product through a coffee filter -- at which point it should have so little sludge that it won't clog the filter.

Or I could toss the whole thing -- sigh. It took me a week to chop, freeze, thaw, and press that many apples.

I could be paranoid. Perhaps I am. I do think glass would settle very quickly, but I think that small pieces could easily be racked out if the racking cane got close to the bottom. With care, it's probably not a significant risk. Just be careful. In the future, I would recommend passing trying to save half a gallon of cider from a broken glass vessel.

P.S. I have two 6 gallon glass carboys, but got a 5 gallon PET one recently to reduce the amount of heavy glass I'm handling. While I may consider glass in the future, I think I'll be leaning towards PET for most things, especially large things.

You're absolutely right. The warnings I had read were particularly about nonhard cider and I have read that pasteurization is less common with hard cider, especially if you use camden tablets. I just figured I'd double up on quasi-sterilization even if it costs a bit of flavor. But maybe I'm taking the wrong approach. I'm brand new and have no ego about any of this. Beats me! I'm open to any suggestion.

I've only made a handful of batches with store juice myself, but I plan on locating some unpasteurized juice from a local orchard specifically to do wild fermentation for the Funky Farmhouse Cider. Plus for some regular fermentation to compare to batches I've made with store bought juice. Funky Farmhouse Cider

 

[CKuhns]

long-aging a completed fermentation in secondary actually shed the sulfur or is that just not going to work?

It does work but takes a good bit of time.
- Yes Rack
- Then de-gas by stirring it or swirling it with the airlock off. (do it once or twice a day for a few days and see how its coming along. Yes you open it to air and yes you have the potential for some oxidation. But if your careful and not too aggressive and keep your headspace very small it should not be too big a concern.
- The other option is to drop some copper in it.

https://www.homecidermaking.com/why...st for,to use copper to react with the sulfur.

 

[MtnGoatJoe]

I heat to 160-185 for ten minutes, although once it reaches that temp in large volumes (two gallon pot) it stays within range for nearly an hour. I realize pasteurization is said to affect flavor, but I have read that it is strongly recommended that hobbyists pasteurize apple cider because it has a high risk of dangerous infections that can literally make people sick, not just ruin cider. Do you think that advice is unnecessary? Should I really not pasteurize and just rely on camden tablets alone?

I've been curious about pasteurization as well (I'm very new also). From reading the forums and everything I can find online, it seems most people pasteurize with Camden tablets because heat pasteurization affects the pectin and makes for a cloudy cider. Also, many people believe that heat somehow burns the juice giving it a "cooked" flavor, which I have found not to be true at all from the 7 gallons I heat pasteurized a few weeks ago (just use a double-boiler or heat the juice very slowly; never bring to a boil).

Yeah, that was my first batch. I was clueless. I often sweeten the freshly pasteurized juice a lot so that if drunk unhardened (say for kids) it'll actually taste good. Truth be told, juice in any form really does have a lot of sugar in it and I find that if I don't put quite a lot in, the resulting cider isn't very drinkable -- but perhaps that juice, so sweetened, isn't also a good target for fermentation. Perhaps if I decide in advance what path a particular batch headed for (kids or adults) I can sweeten less accordingly.

I don't know what apples you're using for juice, but my mother's jonagolds produce AWESOME juice. Absolutely no sugar needed (and I like sweet).

But for hard cider, the yeast converts ALL the sugar to alcohol. Completely dry if left on its own. It seems many people back sweeten after fermentation, but I've been curious to try pasteurizing after the cider hits 1.020 SG. But I have no idea how that would turn out (though a forum member said that alcohol evaporates at 173, and that heat pasteurization at 160 would still evaporate some of the alcohol).

Anyway, good luck!