Brainstorming - "Quick" Brettanomyces Beers (no sour)

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Miraculix

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Good morning!

I will have a spare fermenter in a few weeks and I thought about using that one for the bretty stuff. I always wanted to brew a nice beer including brettanomyces, but this should not be a brettanomyces only beer and not a sour. Tart would be ok, but not a real sour. I would like to be able to drink this as fast as possible, but still be able to taste the impact of the brett. I am aware that this will need possibly months to develop, still months is better than a full year. This thread is kind of a brainstorming thing, everybody can bring in his experience and let's see where we end up.

So far I see two big obstacles.

1. I bottle and brett likes to continue chewing the longer sugars. This means, bottling too early is risking bottle bombs. I do not want to use enzymes.

I thought about using a Saison Yeast to solve this issue. Belle Saison brings down a lower abv wort which was mashed for fermentability to 1.0 FG in nder two weeks. That would solve the Bottle bomb potential problem.

2. Brett needs time to develop the desired flavours. It is what it is. Let's see what the smallest time fram is, one can get away with.

The Flavour:
I like these bretty flavours, earthy, "horse blanket" type of flavours. I also like the fruity touch some bretts can impart, generally, I love brettanomyces induced flavours. My understanding is, that a big part of this flavour comes from transforming existing esters and phenols into something different. Belle Saison is a clean yeast, so there is probably not much that the brett can transform.

Adding a second yeast? But which type? Some phenols producing yeast, like for example a German wheat beer strain? Or an fruity esterbomb like Verdant IPA? A mix of both?

And then, let's say belle really brought it down to 1.0. How much time does the brett need to deliver these complex flavours I am after?

Many questions....

Thanks for everyone who chimes in.

M

@RPh_Guy You were the first person I thought about, you probably have a lot of experience to share.
 

Erik the Anglophile

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I'd brew some old timey Burton or KK style ale, let it ferment out with normal yeast then add Brett and let it sit a few months then bottle and mature a bit more. The English strong keeping ales back in the day were often worked by Brett during cask conditioning/maturing/vatting so you could get a taste of what it was like back in the glory days of the mid- late 19th century..
 

evolutionary

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le temps ne respecte pas ce qui se fait sans lui.

You have two main options for yeasts from what you mention - a 100% brett ferment or using multiples. Saison yeast is a common one for a co-ferment, as this gets pretty dry to minimize bottle bombs like you mention. You will get more of the traditional horseblanket/etc flavors by co-fermenting as you'll have the saison yeast flavors for it to deal with. A pure 100% brett fermentation is possible but will take longer to ferment as well as bottle condition. You'll get the fruity notes early but the brett horse and other flavors a bit later but to a much lesser extent with some extended bottle aging by just using this.

It really depends what you're after. Pure brett is quicker but closer to a traditional sacc flavor than a coferment or if brett is added after primary saison yeast fermentation. That would take longer to get to the final result but would be a totally different beer (and would also be good if not mashed as low or if you add complex carbs for it to munch along the way).

Take a look at some of the 100% brett posts here for more info on that as well.
 

DBhomebrew

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I'd brew some old timey Burton or KK style ale, let it ferment out with normal yeast then add Brett and let it sit a few months then bottle and mature a bit more. The English strong keeping ales back in the day were often worked by Brett during cask conditioning/maturing/vatting so you could get a taste of what it was like back in the glory days of the mid- late 19th century..

I don't think this qualifies as  quick, but it sure is getting tasty! Here's my 11-11-11 Gunstock Ale, designed by those HBT members to approximate a British stock ale. Next in that fermenter will be one of Ron's Victorian Fullers XXKs. But like I said, quick it is not. ~9 months since brew day and it's about ready to bottle. A modest 3mo in the bottle rounds out the full year.
 
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Miraculix

Miraculix

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le temps ne respecte pas ce qui se fait sans lui.

You have two main options for yeasts from what you mention - a 100% brett ferment or using multiples. Saison yeast is a common one for a co-ferment, as this gets pretty dry to minimize bottle bombs like you mention. You will get more of the traditional horseblanket/etc flavors by co-fermenting as you'll have the saison yeast flavors for it to deal with. A pure 100% brett fermentation is possible but will take longer to ferment as well as bottle condition. You'll get the fruity notes early but the brett horse and other flavors a bit later but to a much lesser extent with some extended bottle aging by just using this.

It really depends what you're after. Pure brett is quicker but closer to a traditional sacc flavor than a coferment or if brett is added after primary saison yeast fermentation. That would take longer to get to the final result but would be a totally different beer (and would also be good if not mashed as low or if you add complex carbs for it to munch along the way).

Take a look at some of the 100% brett posts here for more info on that as well.
Thanks for the information. That pretty much confirms what I thought, I'm not going to do a 100% Brett beer. I want all the flavours so co pitch it is.

I'd brew some old timey Burton or KK style ale, let it ferment out with normal yeast then add Brett and let it sit a few months then bottle and mature a bit more. The English strong keeping ales back in the day were often worked by Brett during cask conditioning/maturing/vatting so you could get a taste of what it was like back in the glory days of the mid- late 19th century..
That is definitely on my list. I had some conversation about this with @Northern_Brewer somewhere in here, might have even created a dedicated thread at that time. There are some brett strains that are actualy derived from these old ales, so I would probably go for these. But this is not what I am after this time.

I don't think this qualifies as  quick, but it sure is getting tasty! Here's my 11-11-11 Gunstock Ale, designed by those HBT members to approximate a British stock ale. Next in that fermenter will be one of Ron's Victorian Fullers XXKs. But like I said, quick it is not. ~9 months since brew day and it's about ready to bottle. A modest 3mo in the bottle rounds out the full year.
That is a nice one, but not really what I am after this time.
 
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Miraculix

Miraculix

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I think in general, the most important question atm is, which yeast to use for the co pitching.

My guess is, it should be as expressive as possible, but more in the phenolic direction or more in the estery direction? From what does the brett benefit the most?
 
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Miraculix

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Just rediscovered this thread:

 
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Miraculix

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Hmmm. It looks like dead yeast plays a role in barnyard brett funk production. I might just throw in some boiled bread yeast, once fermentation is slowing down, to give the bretts some corpses to devour.

Zzzzzzoooombiiiieeeee beeeeer........

Anyway, still looking for the optimum co pitch sacc strain, that boosts brett expression as much as possible.
 

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100% brett is amazing for IPA. 2 month and u have perfect IPA. They will give a lot of fruit, freshness but little funky. I like this but u need mixed fermentation ;)
Use strongly phenolic yeast, then the bretts have the opportunity to show off. First job must make belgian yest, next beer go to glass container and u add bretts. Remember that bretts break down phenols into other compounds, etc but...but you need a minimum of 6 months. Best of the year in combination with wood.
You need to restrict oxygen. Oxygen=vinigar. It is best to collect test samples with a syringe with a silicone tube. You put such a device in the place of the fermentation tube and take it out beer.

"It looks like dead yeast plays a role in barnyard brett funk production" yes and no...when you have an annual beer, there will be enough dead yeast in it. Remember that this is one of the last food sources!

And finally ... in my opinnia, the basis is a complex mixture of microorganisms. Buy several types, write to a brewery that makes wild beers etc. Bretts are different and, in addition, they are best if they are part of the entire flora. I have blends from several breweries. Some are very funky, others are fruity, fresh and even yoghurt.

The best thing about it is one thing ... they are a bit unpredictable creatures and you can never be sure of the result;)
 
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Miraculix

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100% brett is amazing for IPA. 2 month and u have perfect IPA. They will give a lot of fruit, freshness but little funky. I like this but u need mixed fermentation ;)
Use strongly phenolic yeast, then the bretts have the opportunity to show off. First job must make belgian yest, next beer go to glass container and u add bretts. Remember that bretts break down phenols into other compounds, etc but...but you need a minimum of 6 months. Best of the year in combination with wood.
You need to restrict oxygen. Oxygen=vinigar. It is best to collect test samples with a syringe with a silicone tube. You put such a device in the place of the fermentation tube and take it out beer.

"It looks like dead yeast plays a role in barnyard brett funk production" yes and no...when you have an annual beer, there will be enough dead yeast in it. Remember that this is one of the last food sources!

And finally ... in my opinnia, the basis is a complex mixture of microorganisms. Buy several types, write to a brewery that makes wild beers etc. Bretts are different and, in addition, they are best if they are part of the entire flora. I have blends from several breweries. Some are very funky, others are fruity, fresh and even yoghurt.

The best thing about it is one thing ... they are a bit unpredictable creatures and you can never be sure of the result;)
Thank you.

Ok, Phenolic yeast it shall be. Co-pitched with brett and belle Saison or Mangrove jack M29. Actually, as M29 is supposed to be more expressive than belle, it will be M29.

I will add some boiled bread yeast once fermentation has reached FG or almost reached fg. I am pitching a saison yeast to reach fg as quickly as possible. In my mind, it makes sense to pitch some of the dead yeast at this point to mimick the slow death of the sacc through starvation after months of having no carbs to eat. In this case, the dead yeast will be instantly available, once the carbs are gone.

Phenols from the sacc will be there, dead yeast will be there, no carbs for the sacc and very very little complex carbs for the brett will be there. The very little complex carbs part concerns me actually a bit, but if I would swap to a non-diastatic sacc strain, it would take ages till a stable fg would be reached due to slow brett activity on the complex sugars. As I am trying to speed things up here, the little leftovers of the saison yeast must do.

I am thinking about pitching yeast in a small amount of high gravity wort and diluting it after a few days. German wheat beer breweries do this sometimes, this enhances yeast expression and might be a plus in this case. More for the brett to transform.

Lets say, I am after 20 litres 1.04 OG, I could pitch in 10 litres 1.08 OG wort and add 10 litres of water after the first 4 days or so.
 
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Northern_Brewer

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I think in general, the most important question atm is, which yeast to use for the co pitching.

My guess is, it should be as expressive as possible, but more in the phenolic direction or more in the estery direction? From what does the brett benefit the most?

Define "benefit" - ultimately it's for your benefit not the Brett's.... Personally I prefer Brett more in my wine than my beer, so for beer I'm more of a claussenii than a brux man, but that's just my taste, and partly being British I'm obsessed with balance in my beer so single-note horseblanket doesn't really do it for me.

You want hydroxycinnamic acids in there as precursors - ferulic acid and its friends, so it wouldn't hurt to have some wheat or maize in there, and a ferulic acid rest at 43C on the way. In particular you want p-coumaric acid, which both Brett and phenolic Saccs can convert into 4-vinyl phenol, which Brett can reduce to 4-ethyl phenol which is the main barnyard compound.

So I'd definitely be looking at a phenolic Sacc of some kind - maybe T-58 as it seems to be generally bioactive and will give you a complex pool of starting compounds for your Brett to play with. Or Munich Classic as an old faithful. If you're wanting a "quick" fermentation then it's probably best to have not too attenuative a Sacc in there, leave some simpler sugars for the Brett to get up to speed on before moving into the diastatic phase.

The classic pineapply fruit of Brett beers comes from 6-10 carbon esters - mostly hexanoates and octanoates, with decanoates supporting. In the beer world they tend to be known by their old names - caproates, caprylates and caprates. Those esters are made from the corresponding acids which generally smell pretty foul - think sweaty, "goaty", rancid and cheesy. In fact their names are derived from the Latin word for goat, their fatty acids are a significant component of goat's milk (and hence goat's cheese, which I'm not a big fan of).

But that "cheesy" should be a clue, these acids are the same ones that make old hops smell cheesy. So that's why lambic producers use old hops, as feedstock for ester production. So if you've got some old hops that have been lying around open, you might want to use them here.

In general the "lambicus" Bretts produce about twice as much of these esters as the "Brux" ones, in particular WLP653. And of course if you are just looking for pineapple then WLP644 Sacc Trois (aka Imperial Citrus A20 and Omega OYL-200) is the one that's famous for it. There's also a health fad around octanoic acid, which means you can buy it as caprylic acid supplements; so if the ...less German... among you are looking for a real pineapple hit, you might want to try adding that, I don't know if it will work but it should.
 
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Miraculix

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Why do you care so much about time?
Because I find it very interesting to speed things up. I'm also probably moving houses in a few months, but the main thing is just because I can try, I'm trying to speed things up. I like to experiment!
 
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If you want a [kinda] quick Brett, I may suggest a medium gravity pure Brett beer. Preferably, with a fruity (not funky) Brett strain. I did some experiments with Saisons'n'Bretts and pure Bretts. My Bretty Saisons took years (like two years) to become good beers and to transform the unbearable Brett acidity into some fine esters. Apparently, the "horsey" flavours take a very long time to get their full strength. After all, the Bretts have very little starting substances to transform in a well attenuated Saison.
Fruity strains (like the cherry-flavoured W15 f.ex.) produced decent beers quicker - like in 6 months. Although, it was only after a year that they had become not just decent but any kind of good. After all those experiments, I don't think I'm going to return to the Bretts. Too much extraordinary sanitation hassle in return of unusual but otherwise pretty mediocre beers, with an immensely delayed gratification term. YMMV, of course.
 

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I disagree, the berettt give a unique beer profile. Yes u need a lot of time but results? Amazing. It's just that isolated strains are often boring.in saison you have much more substances for bretts than in 100% brett beer
 

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For example, phenols that fritters transform into other compounds. The amount of sugar in the beer is of negligible importance for the funky aromas.
 
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Miraculix

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If you want a [kinda] quick Brett, I may suggest a medium gravity pure Brett beer. Preferably, with a fruity (not funky) Brett strain. I did some experiments with Saisons'n'Bretts and pure Bretts. My Bretty Saisons took years (like two years) to become good beers and to transform the unbearable Brett acidity into some fine esters. Apparently, the "horsey" flavours take a very long time to get their full strength. After all, the Bretts have very little starting substances to transform in a well attenuated Saison.
Fruity strains (like the cherry-flavoured W15 f.ex.) produced decent beers quicker - like in 6 months. Although, it was only after a year that they had become not just decent but any kind of good. After all those experiments, I don't think I'm going to return to the Bretts. Too much extraordinary sanitation hassle in return of unusual but otherwise pretty mediocre beers, with an immensely delayed gratification term. YMMV, of course.
Thanks for your input! Pure brett beer is from the table for now, I want it mixed because I have some Iideas which I either want to confirm or to cross out. Did you ever add dead yeast to your brett saisons, once fermentation of sugars was done? Did you add a very expressive yeast that boosts phenols?
 
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What about glucoamylase? Rph guy’s fast and funky method should be fine for what you describe just omit lacto. Strangely enough I was planning on trying exactly this in the next few days. T-58 with Brett C on a saisony grain/hop bill, no lacto.
 
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Miraculix

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Define "benefit" - ultimately it's for your benefit not the Brett's.... Personally I prefer Brett more in my wine than my beer, so for beer I'm more of a claussenii than a brux man, but that's just my taste, and partly being British I'm obsessed with balance in my beer so single-note horseblanket doesn't really do it for me.

You want hydroxycinnamic acids in there as precursors - ferulic acid and its friends, so it wouldn't hurt to have some wheat or maize in there, and a ferulic acid rest at 43C on the way. In particular you want p-coumaric acid, which both Brett and phenolic Saccs can convert into 4-vinyl phenol, which Brett can reduce to 4-ethyl phenol which is the main barnyard compound.

So I'd definitely be looking at a phenolic Sacc of some kind - maybe T-58 as it seems to be generally bioactive and will give you a complex pool of starting compounds for your Brett to play with. Or Munich Classic as an old faithful. If you're wanting a "quick" fermentation then it's probably best to have not too attenuative a Sacc in there, leave some simpler sugars for the Brett to get up to speed on before moving into the diastatic phase.

The classic pineapply fruit of Brett beers comes from 6-10 carbon esters - mostly hexanoates and octanoates, with decanoates supporting. In the beer world they tend to be known by their old names - caproates, caprylates and caprates. Those esters are made from the corresponding acids which generally smell pretty foul - think sweaty, "goaty", rancid and cheesy. In fact their names are derived from the Latin word for goat, their fatty acids are a significant component of goat's milk (and hence goat's cheese, which I'm not a big fan of).

But that "cheesy" should be a clue, these acids are the same ones that make old hops smell cheesy. So that's why lambic producers use old hops, as feedstock for ester production. So if you've got some old hops that have been lying around open, you might want to use them here.

In general the "lambicus" Bretts produce about twice as much of these esters as the "Brux" ones, in particular WLP653. And of course if you are just looking for pineapple then WLP644 Sacc Trois (aka Imperial Citrus A20 and Omega OYL-200) is the one that's famous for it. There's also a health fad around octanoic acid, which means you can buy it as caprylic acid supplements; so if the ...less German... among you are looking for a real pineapple hit, you might want to try adding that, I don't know if it will work but it should.
Thank you very much, that was what I was hoping for. I was already thinking about a ferulic rest to boost the phenols and strangely, I also had T58 in mind.

Now you brought up something new, cheesy hops. I do not have them available, but I am sure that I can create them without much effort in no time :D. I am actually not that much into the fruity part of brett, but if I have the chance? why not? Might be a bit too much of everything, or exactly what is needed to speed things up, who knows?

So it is T58, Belle Saison, Brett, cheesy hops, 50% wheat, ferulic rest, low and long mash for now.

Well, I am not that German when it comes to beer ingredients, but I try to limit things that come from the lab to a bare minimum within my brews. Your suggestion with caprylic acid is really interesting, but nothing I would want in my beer for now.
 
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Miraculix

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What about glucoamylase? Rph guy’s fast and funky method should be fine for what you describe just omit lacto. Strangely enough I was planning on trying exactly this in the next few days. T-58 with Brett C on a saisony grain/hop bill, no lacto.
That would work, but I simply do not want to work with enzymes.
 

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Did you ever add dead yeast to your brett saisons, once fermentation of sugars was done?
No, I didn't. Now I often use Yeastlife Extra yeast nutrient but I wasn't back then when I was experimenting with Brett Saisons.
The Northern Brewer's acid suggestion looks almost exactly what I read about compound transformation in a Brett fermentation. My practical experience is that any Brett I've used (not just in bretted Saison but in all my Brett batches, including classic bretted historical English Porters) first produced an indecent amount of acid and then very slowly (like in many months) transformed it, reducing tartness and increasing funky flavours. Right now, because of this thread, I've cracked open a bottle of my 1.5 year old Pure Brett beer. It's not much tart anymore (it was!) and it's way funkier now than it was a year ago.
Frankly, I doubt a good Brett beer could be made quickly (cause it would be very tart when young - at least to my taste). But it's just an opinion of a guy who's not too fond even of really well-made and long-matured Brett beers and was brewing them just for self-education 🙄
 
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So it is T58, Belle Saison, Brett, cheesy hops, 50% wheat, ferulic rest, low and long mash for now.
As I say, I'm not sure about using Belle, if you want the Brett to be fast then you want to give them some easier sugars to work on.

Well, I am not that German when it comes to beer ingredients
To be fair it's Bavaria that ruined German beer, the north Germans are far more sensible about it. [...runs...]

Something else I meant to put in that earlier post. We know that Brett has a lot more glycosidase than Sacc, and we now know that mash-hopping releases more glycosides than eg whirlpooling. So my left-field idea would be to mash hop your Brett beer with eg some Saaz or Cascade to see if the Brett can do something with the glycosides.

No idea if it will work, but it would be fun to try.
 
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As I say, I'm not sure about using Belle, if you want the Brett to be fast then you want to give them some easier sugars to work on.


To be fair it's Bavaria that ruined German beer, the north Germans are far more sensible about it. [...runs...]

Something else I meant to put in that earlier post. We know that Brett has a lot more glycosidase than Sacc, and we now know that mash-hopping releases more glycosides than eg whirlpooling. So my left-field idea would be to mash hop your Brett beer with eg some Saaz or Cascade to see if the Brett can do something with the glycosides.

No idea if it will work, but it would be fun to try.
OK, good Idea! Mash hopping is added to the list.

I want to limit longer sugars as much as possible, because of the bottle bomb risk. I want to speed things up and if I have to wait one year till the brett got through the dextrins, than there's no point of doing all the other things. If I use belle, the beer will be basically almost completely dry in two to three weeks. And as far as I understand it, the brett does not need sugars to develop the bretty flavour. Risk free bottling will be possible much earlier this way.


.....I have to remember to take my opened pack of Mittelfrüh out of the freezer later on today ...
 

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What Brett strain are you going go to use? From which supplier? They’re all very different. The Yeast Bay sells something like 8 Brett Brux strains that taste/ferment/smell completely different.

TYB184 is amazing and very fast. It can take as little as a month in secondary at even a low pitch rate. It has a cool lemon, hay profile. Not much funk though. 207 however can take 7-9 months. Both are Brux strains but both act completely different.

If you don’t use a diastaticus Sacch strain most Brett’s will stop somewhere around 1 plato. Not all but most. I did an experiment with 6 different strains in 1 gallon jugs for a year and none of them got to 1.000 or below.

My preferred method is a normal ferment with Ardennes, let it flocc out and either remove yeast or transfer to a second vessel then add TYB184. It will most likely ferment the additional sugars and create it’s profile in about 4 weeks. If it’s close to 1.004 then bottle condition in heavy glass with wine yeast or CBC-1. You can drink some as soon as they’re done bottle conditioning and then try them over time as the Brett will continue to create different flavor compounds under pressure.
 
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What Brett strain are you going go to use? From which supplier? They’re all very different. The Yeast Bay sells something like 8 Brett Brux strains that taste/ferment/smell completely different.

TYB184 is amazing and very fast. It can take as little as a month in secondary at even a low pitch rate. It has a cool lemon, hay profile. Not much funk though. 207 however can take 7-9 months. Both are Brux strains but both act completely different.

If you don’t use a diastaticus Sacch strain most Brett’s will stop somewhere around 1 plato. Not all but most. I did an experiment with 6 different strains in 1 gallon jugs for a year and none of them got to 1.000 or below.

My preferred method is a normal ferment with Ardennes, let it flocc out and either remove yeast or transfer to a second vessel then add TYB184. It will most likely ferment the additional sugars and create it’s profile in about 4 weeks. If it’s close to 1.004 then bottle condition in heavy glass with wine yeast or CBC-1. You can drink some as soon as they’re done bottle conditioning and then try them over time as the Brett will continue to create different flavor compounds under pressure.
That is probably one of the most important questions, I have not yet decided which strain I would like to use. Maybe a mix would be a good idea?

How long did it take your brett based beers to reach fg usually, when used with a non diastatic yeast? Have you tried pitching "normal yeast" and brett together from the start? Why do you remove the yeast when transfering?

Ardenne sounds like a cool strain, I like the flocculation description. I might try this one if I am brewing a Patersbier in the future.
 
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That is probably one of the most important questions, I have not yet decided which strain I would like to use. Maybe a mix would be a good idea?

How long did it take your brett based beers to reach fg usually, when used with a non diastatic yeast? Have you tried pitching "normal yeast" and brett together from the start? Why do you remove the yeast when transfering?

Ardenne sounds like a cool strain, I like the flocculation description. I might try this one if I am brewing a Patersbier in the future.

I’ve never copitched Sacch and Brett. For me it was more about keeping Brett away from my normal clean gear. For the beers I was trying to make (Brett saison) I didn’t want a bunch of yeast in the secondary vessel. Dying yeast can really screw with foam and head retention.

Normal Ardennes ferment would maybe be 5-7 days depending on gravity. Either let it flocc on its own or crash it. Transfer to secondary and add Brett. I never took a gravity reading before 1 month in secondary but with a beer that stopped at 1.010 it would usually get to 1.004 in a month or so. I’d always give it 2 months however.

I never enjoyed 100% Brett fermented beers. Brett doesn’t produce any glycerol so the mouthfeel on 100% Brett beers was always really watery to me, regardless of finished gravity or grain bill. Had some amazing tasting and smelling ones but the mouthfeel was always a let down.
 

Beer666

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I found the beersel blend to ferment out pretty fast. About a month to be drinkable, Worked well with verdant. My next project will be a brett lager.
 
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Miraculix

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I’ve never copitched Sacch and Brett. For me it was more about keeping Brett away from my normal clean gear. For the beers I was trying to make (Brett saison) I didn’t want a bunch of yeast in the secondary vessel. Dying yeast can really screw with foam and head retention.

Normal Ardennes ferment would maybe be 5-7 days depending on gravity. Either let it flocc on its own or crash it. Transfer to secondary and add Brett. I never took a gravity reading before 1 month in secondary but with a beer that stopped at 1.010 it would usually get to 1.004 in a month or so. I’d always give it 2 months however.

I never enjoyed 100% Brett fermented beers. Brett doesn’t produce any glycerol so the mouthfeel on 100% Brett beers was always really watery to me, regardless of finished gravity or grain bill. Had some amazing tasting and smelling ones but the mouthfeel was always a let down.
Great info, thanks. Now I am rethinking my plan of pitching boiled yeast once the carbs are gone to mimic the dying process of the sacch... I don't want to ruin the foam, I need foam in a good beer.

Maybe pitching it already during active fermentation? But maybe this is the wrong timing, maybe the benefit for the brett only comes into play once carbs are gone and then they switch to devouring yeast corpses. Before, it's probably just like nutrients and both sacch and brett will have it.

Hmmm...
 

HM-2

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I’ve never copitched Sacch and Brett.
I have, but only ever if I'm fermenting in a keg or similar vessel that I don't need to worry about lingering infection with. Something like WLP644 and Brett Brux is a great combination for co-pitch, but it's a bit of a slow burner- Brux takes a good 3-6 months to really come alive, though I've had samples at two months which are "pretty good".
 

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