Bottle Infection?

[GoodTruble]

Any input welcome. This is my third batch (Tripel). No problems with the first two. But this is the first time I used some swing top bottles for part of the batch, and one of them has some very nasty looking stringy floaters traveling up and down (riding a bubble up, then dropping back down). None if the plastic bottles appear to have these. The below 1-liter swingtop has a lot of them. -and one smaller swingtop may have some small black specks as well.

They are supposed to bottle condition another 6 weeks. So, I am just going to wait to see what happens/changes. But is this already diagnosable as an infection? If so, hopefully it will be just the one or two bottle. I was really looking forward to this beer.

Thanks.

 

[JimRausch]

It does look like it to me. Hopefully it was just one bottle that didn't get properly cleaned and sanitized. I'd dump that bottle.

 

[GoodTruble]

It does look like it to me. Hopefully it was just one bottle that didn't get properly cleaned and sanitized. I'd dump that bottle.

Thanks for the confirmation. So far, it is just the one bottle. Hopefully the rest turn out fine. I have 6 weeks to find out =c).

It was a new bottle. So maybe I didn't clean it enough. But it was also the first bottle filled. So maybe it was something in the tube or wand. I'll look for better ways to clean them all (used one-step this time).

 

[GoodTruble]

Quick update. So far it looks like this bottle is the only one with this issue. The rest still look clear/floater free after 7 days in the bottles.

For the liter swingtop with the floaters, I've accepted it is probably infected. So I am putting it in the refrigerator to see how much it clears. If everything drops, I may let it be for a other few weeks, or I open it up for a smell test and hydrometer reading.

 

[JimRausch]

I'll look for better ways to clean them all (used one-step this time).

From what I've read, One Step is a decent cleaner, but not a terribly effective sanitizer. I'd get some starsan or a iodinated sanitizer.

 

[GoodTruble]

From what I've read, One Step is a decent cleaner, but not a terribly effective sanitizer. I'd get some starsan or a iodinated sanitizer.

Thank you. I would like to switch to starsan, but my cheap plastic fermenters (Demonbrew, food grade pvc) allegedly get weakened by acidic cleansers. I like the fermenters, but if keep brewing, I will likely have to onto to something better/more durable. Maybe I'll just start using Starsan and see how long things last. I'd prefer replacing equipment sooner over repeated beer infections.

 

[VikeMan]

If I owned a fermenter that could be eaten away by Star San solution, I'd get a different fermenter, rather than not sanitize my equipment.

 

[GoodTruble]

If I owned a fermenter that could be eaten away by Star San solution, I'd get a different fermenter, rather than not sanitize my equipment.

Agreed. Supposedly you can sanitize them with non-acidic products (which I have tried to do). But the general consensus is that those products are not as good and that starsan and iodophor are best. I think I'll try starsan, and if it wears out the fermenters, move on to other equipment.

 

[GoodTruble]

Another update: I'm pretty sure it was the bottling wand. I went to bottle another batch today, and halfway through sanitizing everything, I noticed a couple of similar floaters in the cleaning solution bucket. I noticed them right after re-adding the bottling wand. It was the third time I had soaked it cleaning solution (One-Step), and so I think it was jammed in there somehow. Tossing that wand, and will disassemble and wash individual part better in the future (or just use a wand).

 

[dwhite60]

From what I've read, One Step is a decent cleaner, but not a terribly effective sanitizer. I'd get some starsan or a iodinated sanitizer.

https://www.beer-simple.com/brewing/2016/1/25/my-one-step-addiction-cleaning-sanitizing-and-brewing
I use One-Step as my sanitizer. I've never had a problem. I buy five pounds at a time. I like that it's the most environmentally friendly sanitizer available. It breaks down to O2 and some minerals.

It's an awesome cleaner too.

 

[GoodTruble]

https://www.beer-simple.com/brewing/2016/1/25/my-one-step-addiction-cleaning-sanitizing-and-brewing
I use One-Step as my sanitizer. I've never had a problem. I buy five pounds at a time. I like that it's the most environmentally friendly sanitizer available. It breaks down to O2 and some minerals.

It's an awesome cleaner too.

Others using Demonbrew fermenters have also said they have used One-Step to sanitize with no problems. I accept this problem was probably my own fault for not taking apart the bottling wand/filler when cleaning it. That last mistake has now cost me 1.25 gallons of beer I was really looking forward to. Harsh lesson but could have been worse.

 

[GoodTruble]

But I would still like to have the option to use starsan. I found instructions on this form for making a five gallon water sanitizer by adding a tablespoon of vinegar and bleach. So I am using that to sanitize everyone but the fermenter and will likely use starsan for the same in the future.

 

[DuncB]

I would like to switch to starsan, but my cheap plastic fermenters (Demonbrew, food grade pvc) allegedly get weakened by acidic cleansers.

Don't forget Starsan is a sanitiser.

It isn't an acidic cleanser at all, they have a much lower pH and are a different ball game. Like acid drain cleanser compared to vinegar in a way.

You should be fine to use Starsan, after all your wort pH might be 5.1 or perhaps less with a sour beer ( have no pH info for them never made one) and starsan pH is less than 3.5. Realising that pH is log scale it does mean that at least 10 times more acid ( H+ions) in starsan, but you aren't leaving it in contact for a few weeks either.

Have just googled and fermenting wine pH is about 3.5.

 

[GoodTruble]

Don't forget Starsan is a sanitiser.

It isn't an acidic cleanser at all, they have a much lower pH and are a different ball game. Like acid drain cleanser compared to vinegar in a way.

You should be fine to use Starsan, after all your wort pH might be 5.1 or perhaps less with a sour beer ( have no pH info for them never made one) and starsan pH is less than 3.5. Realising that pH is log scale it does mean that at least 10 times more acid ( H+ions) in starsan, but you aren't leaving it in contact for a few weeks either.

Have just googled and fermenting wine pH is about 3.5.

Fair points. It's probably a little bit of CYA by the manufacturer. But limited use exposure to starsan probably wouldn't do much damage in the near term (though I'm just guessing and probably won't test it unless another infection happens or I'm ready/willing to move on from that frermenter if it breaks/starts leaking).

 

[Rickdude]

Hey guys, just jumping in because someone asked me to. (and thanks!)

TL;DR: Star San (and San Step, so we're guilty too) will indeed damage plastic materials.

Just wanted to explain what's up with the damage to plastics from Star San (and I'll spread the blame-- our own non-foaming acid sanitizer, San Step, does it too). The real sanitizer in these products isn't the low pH, it's the presence of a surfactant (i.e. detergent) that penetrates the lipid membranes of microorganisms. Think of those membranes as oily/greasy soil that has been assembled into a blob with the organism living inside of it.

Unfortunately, that detergent part is also really effective at leaching plasticizers out of polymer structures. The plasticizers are there to help the plastic carboys, racking canes, etc be resilient and resist cracking. If you leach them out, you get a brittle material that will craze (that's when you see what looks like tiny cracks or lines) or snap under stress (has anyone had a racking cane suddenly break unexpectedly?).

It's not a CYA from the manufacturer-- there's a real reason to avoid using those materials with plastics if you want a longer life span for your gear, especially the clear stuff like polycarbonate and acrylic. On the other hand, it won't be a sudden catastrophic failure in most cases, so go ahead and use those products if you don't mind that you'll be needing to replace your stuff sooner. High density polyethylene (HDPE, like the equipment that FastRack produces) is a lot more resistant, though, so less of a concern.

I'll leave the One Step comments alone; there seems to be a consensus that people understand what the product is about. (I've been using it since 1993 without problems except for the times that I did something really stupid that resulted in an infection.)

Hope this is helpful!

Rick

 

[GoodTruble]

Hey guys, just jumping in because someone asked me to. (and thanks!)

TL;DR: Star San (and San Step, so we're guilty too) will indeed damage plastic materials.

Just wanted to explain what's up with the damage to plastics from Star San (and I'll spread the blame-- our own non-foaming acid sanitizer, San Step, does it too). The real sanitizer in these products isn't the low pH, it's the presence of a surfactant (i.e. detergent) that penetrates the lipid membranes of microorganisms. Think of those membranes as oily/greasy soil that has been assembled into a blob with the organism living inside of it.

Unfortunately, that detergent part is also really effective at leaching plasticizers out of polymer structures. The plasticizers are there to help the plastic carboys, racking canes, etc be resilient and resist cracking. If you leach them out, you get a brittle material that will craze (that's when you see what looks like tiny cracks or lines) or snap under stress (has anyone had a racking cane suddenly break unexpectedly?).

It's not a CYA from the manufacturer-- there's a real reason to avoid using those materials with plastics if you want a longer life span for your gear, especially the clear stuff like polycarbonate and acrylic. On the other hand, it won't be a sudden catastrophic failure in most cases, so go ahead and use those products if you don't mind that you'll be needing to replace your stuff sooner. High density polyethylene (HDPE, like the equipment that FastRack produces) is a lot more resistant, though, so less of a concern.

I'll leave the One Step comments alone; there seems to be a consensus that people understand what the product is about. (I've been using it since 1993 without problems except for the times that I did something really stupid that resulted in an infection.)

Hope this is helpful!

Rick

That is a super helpful explanation. Thank you.

 

[DuncB]

So the plastic is pH safe but surfactant unsafe?

 

[Rickdude]

So the plastic is pH safe but surfactant unsafe?

Right! The polymers are pretty resilient to chemical attack (part of the problem with environmental degradation/microplastics). If you go to extremes (like washing with caustic, which is why commercial breweries don't use much in the way of plastic), then there can certainly be an issue, but for us homebrewers it's more a physical chemistry than reactive chemistry as an issue.

Having said that, chemical effect relies not only on concentration, but also on contact time. So a rinse with your favorite acid sanitizer is not much of a problem, but soaking can be. Similarly, don't leave polycarbonate or vinyl (e.g. tubing) soaking in a strong alkaline solution for an extended time, either.

Thanks for the clarifying question!

 

[DuncB]

The only thing I'd found in the past that really trashed plastics fast is strong sunlight. Very poor ozone layer in NZ and you daren't leave any plastics outside for long. Plastic clothes pegs are hopeless. Plastic bags as well just fall into tiny pieces.

 

[Birrofilo]

But I would still like to have the option to use starsan. I found instructions on this form for making a five gallon water sanitizer by adding a tablespoon of vinegar and bleach.

I wouldn't trust this solution for two reasons:

a) the smell would require rinsing, but then you don't have any more a no-rinse solution. Depending on the quality of your water, rinsing could be no problem, or could be a problem, you could re-infect the tool;

b) If vinegar is what I mean for vinegar, that's full of Acetobacter aceti, e.g. "the enemy", and even if you rinse you are just rinsing them away. You stone "Brett" and Lactobacilli with a sanitizer and you risk introducing Acetobacter which is the worse offender. Better would have been to simply rinse away Brett and Lactobacilli...

On a side note, PP plastic bucket should be the most resistant plastic to chemical substances. They are notoriously rigid (not a problem, if we except the lid which must make the seal) and opaque (which is not a problem, again). IMHO the ideal cheap plastic fermenter is in PP with a HDPE lid. I have a FerMonster which is PET if memory serves, it certainly it is not PP, but it's a very low-permeability plastic.

 

[GoodTruble]

I wouldn't trust this solution for two reasons:

a) the smell would require rinsing, but then you don't have any more a no-rinse solution. Depending on the quality of your water, rinsing could be no problem, or could be a problem, you could re-infect the tool;

b) If vinegar is what I mean for vinegar, that's full of Acetobacter aceti, e.g. "the enemy", and even if you rinse you are just rinsing them away. You stone "Brett" and Lactobacilli with a sanitizer and you risk introducing Acetobacter which is the worse offender. Better would have been to simply rinse away Brett and Lactobacilli...

On a side note, PP plastic bucket should be the most resistant plastic to chemical substances. They are notoriously rigid (not a problem, if we except the lid which must make the seal) and opaque (which is not a problem, again). IMHO the ideal cheap plastic fermenter is in PP with a HDPE lid. I have a FerMonster which is PET if memory serves, it certainly it is not PP, but it's a very low-permeability plastic.

Thank you for the additional info. The water-bleach-vinegar solution seemed a little too easy (if it were that easy, everyone would just do that). I'm not vouching for it; I just read on this forum somewhere (potential advice from fools), but wouldn't the bleach kill Acetobacter aceti?

 

[Birrofilo]

Thank you for the additional info. The water-bleach-vinegar solution seemed a little too easy (if it were that easy, everyone would just do that). I'm not vouching for it; I just read on this forum somewhere (potential advice from fools), but wouldn't the bleach kill Acetobacter aceti?

Bleach would kill most anything in theory, but it must be rinsed with an acidic solution. The reason why you want to rinse it is that it stinks, and it also can damage your steel. The reason why you want to rinse it with an acidic bath is that you could otherwise develop deposits of calcium oxalates which will form a slight white - and possibly invisible - patina (visible in transparent hoses) which will harbour microbes.

Mixing bleach and vinegar in the assumption that bleach will kill Acetobacter is like parking near a cliff, pulling the handbrake, and giving gas. It might work, it might not. Not curious about that working, though

This bleach-acid bath is my theoretical procedure for silicon and "crystal" hoses and racking canes, and it's boring and it's the reason why I tend to avoid all this. Stainless steel can be cleaned perfectly with sponge and soapy water, as plastic fermenters. Wherever I can pass with a sponge and hot soapy water, that's it. Simply spraying Saniclean (a sanitizer similar to Star San) is the last step. No solutions to prepare, easy life.

If you have a nasty infection, 4 ml / liter bleach for 30 minutes will be an effective medicine (rinse with 3 g / l acetic acid). For sanitizing only, a single no-rinse product, gently sprayed on the tool, and "dripped" from the tool, is my method.

I am a lover of microwave sanitizing and microwave in a water bath is standard for me for anything which is microwaveable-in-a-water-bath. That includes natural tissue hop bags, metal taps, all sorts of gaskets, short hoses, teaspoons that I use for mixing yeast etc.

 

[Rickdude]

I like that idea for microwaving the hop bags! I prefer re-usable bags on principle, but that also means I have to be very careful with them on the cold side (e.g. only dry hop in in a refrigerated keg).

I don't know why it never occurred to me to boil them in that manner. Thanks for the tip!

 

[DuncB]

Pressure cooker even better and you can put pbw etc in at same time instead of just water. But steam at those temps is lethal.

 

[GoodTruble]

Update - After chilling the infected bottle for a week, I opened it this past weekend. It smelled fine, but after a little agitation it began gushing and all the little floaters that had settled at the bottom came back to life (but now gray instead of black). It was like a zombie movie in a bottle. So I dumped that bottle.

I've also opened two other bottles from that batch, and they both smelled/tasted fine. And no other bottles from that batch have floaters.

So I went back to inspect the other bottles that came in that shipment (4, 1-liter glass swingtops); the infected bottle was first/only one I had used so far)). The three unused ones ALL had funky white residue and particles at the bottom. So I now think that was the problem/source. I didn't clean the new bottle well enough to remove that crud (which I now know is quite difficult to wash/remove).

 

[GoodTruble]

Final Update: Luckily all the other bottles from that batch turned out fine. And after conditioning for several weeks, the Tripel turned out great.

In the end, I can't be sure it it was the bottle, the bottling wand, or possibly the spigot. But the answer was that I needed to clean all of them more diligently.

As for cleaners and sanitizers, I just got a lot of One Step and Starsan. I use Starsan for glass and metal; One Step for plastics.

Thanks to everyone for responding/engaging in yet another infection thread.