Bottle Conditioning with Brett

[telp]

I've read several articles online and I'm sorry if this has been covered elsewhere on the forums, I did several searches and never found what I was looking for.

For my primary fermentation, I was going to choose an high attenuating English ale yeast, but then I also wanted to try and bottle condition with the WLP644 yeast. I know due to the high attenuation of the Brett yeasts, bottle conditioning can be tricky and/or difficult. Has anyone here tried doing this (successfully)?

I was thinking I could wrack the beer to secondary, pitch the yeast and wait for it to drop a few gravity points (with or without adding any sugar) before bottling, or I was thinking if it fermented down far enough, I could pitch it before bottling but without adding extra sugar?

Are either of those good ideas or can someone more experienced here inform me as to a better option or a better way to do this.

 

[Calder]

If you have the fermentation space, pitch the Brett and leave it 6+ months before bottling.

I don't think anyone can tell you how much the Brett will continue to ferment the beer for you to estimate FG after the Brett has finished with it, so you are probably best to let the Brett finish and then bottle. Do not use a starter for the brett - you need to pitch low.

Orval is bottled in thick glass bottles that can take high pressures. An interesting note; in Belgium, they drink Orval young (a month after bottling). I've had quite a few Orvals in Belgium, and none of them have obvious Brett influence.

 

[mkeckjr]

Couple of things: recently there has been some discussion that perhaps WLP644 is actually not a strain of Brett, but actually a Sacc C strain. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/wlp644-brett-b-trois-326861/index82.html#post6548956

Calder mentions Orval in his post, and they use the WLP650 strain, Brett Brux, as their bottle conditioning strain. If you are looking for Brett character, might be safer to go with that strain.

I actually just got back from Belgium a month or so ago, and I think you can find bars that have vintages of Orval so that you can sample new Orval right next to a 3 year old bottle. They are certainly not as easy to find, but we were able to find a couple craft bars in Brugge that did that.

 

[user 141939]

I bottled two batches of saison that already had extremely low FGs (around 1.000 because I used 3711). I used one bottles worth of orval dregs per batch and a relatively high (saison levels) amount of sugar. I had one bottle bomb about 5-6 months in. That was the only one out of 90 something bottles. It took about 6 months for the brett flavor to show up.

All the bottles were overcarbed after about 6 months, so I wouldn't do this again personally. I have one bottle left of this magical substance (a year old now) and nothing like it in the works save some 1 gallon batches. ):

From now on I will be brett conditioning in fermentors AND probably using belgian bottles when I do bottle. I suppose if I brewed a 3711 recipe again that ended around 1.000 I might consider bottling with brett with a lesser amount of sugar. Maybe normal levels or a touch below.

 

[m00ps]

I've done 3 beers (all belgians) so far with brett. 2 of them I did what you are planning, primary with sacch for 2 wks, secondary with brett. I bottled both after about 3 months each, shorter than most. I did this because there was already a lot of brett character (more will develop in bottle) and the gravity had been completely stable for 6 weeks straight. I carbed them to just 2.6vol to leave room for a bit of extra brett work and used heavy bottles (>220g for 12oz)

3rd one is still going btu I co-picthed both yeasts for this one

 

[helibrewer]

One of the pro's (Shady Oaks) out here in Santa Rosa does this. He ferments to dryness with French Saison yeast (1.000-1.002). Then he primes and bottles with Brett. This seems like the safest approach to me since the priming sugar is measured and predictable.

 

[trentm]

I've read several articles online and I'm sorry if this has been covered elsewhere on the forums, I did several searches and never found what I was looking for.

For my primary fermentation, I was going to choose an high attenuating English ale yeast, but then I also wanted to try and bottle condition with the WLP644 yeast. I know due to the high attenuation of the Brett yeasts, bottle conditioning can be tricky and/or difficult. Has anyone here tried doing this (successfully)?

I was thinking I could wrack the beer to secondary, pitch the yeast and wait for it to drop a few gravity points (with or without adding any sugar) before bottling, or I was thinking if it fermented down far enough, I could pitch it before bottling but without adding extra sugar?

Are either of those good ideas or can someone more experienced here inform me as to a better option or a better way to do this.

I have tried bottle conditioning with Brett and found the Brett profile way overpowering but if you want a very Brett forward beer, go for it. If you are looking for a more subtle Brett character with notes of ripe fruit and hay leaving some room for the Sacc flavors, malt and hops to come through try this: Build a small starter (just to get the health up and the yeast active) maybe 100 ml for a 5 gallon batch. After primary is complete, pitch the Brett at ~60F. After 3 - 4 days dry hop with 0.5 - 1 oz of pelletized hops. Perhaps it's the O2 in the hops or something else but you will see active fermentation after a day or 2. After 6 - 8 weeks the Brett will have done it's job and you can bottle. But re-yeast with your original Sacc. The Sacc will take care of the priming sugar before the Brett can do much with it, leaving your beer with a quite noticeable, but not overpowering Brett character. I prime toward 3 volumes hoping for ~4 in the end. Bottle condition at 70 - 75F.

Note: I would go with the Brett B as well but don't be afraid of Brett L. under these conditions. I have not tried Brett trois.

 

[telp]

I have tried bottle conditioning with Brett and found the Brett profile way overpowering but if you want a very Brett forward beer, go for it. If you are looking for a more subtle Brett character with notes of ripe fruit and hay leaving some room for the Sacc flavors, malt and hops to come through try this: Build a small starter (just to get the health up and the yeast active) maybe 100 ml for a 5 gallon batch. After primary is complete, pitch the Brett at ~60F. After 3 - 4 days dry hop with 0.5 - 1 oz of pelletized hops. Perhaps it's the O2 in the hops or something else but you will see active fermentation after a day or 2. After 6 - 8 weeks the Brett will have done it's job and you can bottle. But re-yeast with your original Sacc. The Sacc will take care of the priming sugar before the Brett can do much with it, leaving your beer with a quite noticeable, but not overpowering Brett character. I prime toward 3 volumes hoping for ~4 in the end. Bottle condition at 70 - 75F.

Note: I would go with the Brett B as well but don't be afraid of Brett L. under these conditions. I have not tried Brett trois.

Thanks for the information and I will definitely try it (and keep this post updated if I can remember).

 

[telp]

Couple of things: recently there has been some discussion that perhaps WLP644 is actually not a strain of Brett, but actually a Sacc C strain. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/wlp644-brett-b-trois-326861/index82.html#post6548956

Calder mentions Orval in his post, and they use the WLP650 strain, Brett Brux, as their bottle conditioning strain. If you are looking for Brett character, might be safer to go with that strain.

I actually just got back from Belgium a month or so ago, and I think you can find bars that have vintages of Orval so that you can sample new Orval right next to a 3 year old bottle. They are certainly not as easy to find, but we were able to find a couple craft bars in Brugge that did that.

That's very interesting. Perhaps I will look at the Brett Bux strain instead! Thanks for the information!

I've done 3 beers (all belgians) so far with brett. 2 of them I did what you are planning, primary with sacch for 2 wks, secondary with brett. I bottled both after about 3 months each, shorter than most. I did this because there was already a lot of brett character (more will develop in bottle) and the gravity had been completely stable for 6 weeks straight. I carbed them to just 2.6vol to leave room for a bit of extra brett work and used heavy bottles (>220g for 12oz)

3rd one is still going but I co-picthed both yeasts for this one

I'm looking to carb to about 1-1.3 vol, very little. That should leave plenty of room right? Should I lower the amount of priming sugar I use for this? I also have a case of beautiful blue heavy duty bottles. I would hate to lose them but they might be my best option. What was your gravity before you pitched the Brett ? What temperature did you ferment at?

One of the pro's (Shady Oaks) out here in Santa Rosa does this. He ferments to dryness with French Saison yeast (1.000-1.002). Then he primes and bottles with Brett. This seems like the safest approach to me since the priming sugar is measured and predictable.

Interesting. Is there some means of mixing my yeasts to get the high attenuation of the French Saison yeast but still the characteristics of the English ale yeasts? Or perhaps a single yeast strain that will get me similar results?

 

[brdb]

Interesting. Is there some means of mixing my yeasts to get the high attenuation of the French Saison yeast but still the characteristics of the English ale yeasts? Or perhaps a single yeast strain that will get me similar results?

Yes. I would pitch the English yeast first and let that ferment for a couple days which will allow the English yeast to produce the esters that you are looking for, then follow it up with the French Saison yeast which will come in and convert the remaining residual sugars giving you the attenuation you want.

 

[m00ps]

I'm looking to carb to about 1-1.3 vol, very little. That should leave plenty of room right? Should I lower the amount of priming sugar I use for this? I also have a case of beautiful blue heavy duty bottles. I would hate to lose them but they might be my best option. What was your gravity before you pitched the Brett ? What temperature did you ferment at?

That is so little carbonation I wouldnt worry at all about bottle bombs. I almost feel like you could bottle after only 2 weeks and it still wouldnt reach the 4.0+ levels usually needed for bombs

 

[telp]

Yes. I would pitch the English yeast first and let that ferment for a couple days which will allow the English yeast to produce the esters that you are looking for, then follow it up with the French Saison yeast which will come in and convert the remaining residual sugars giving you the attenuation you want.

Sounds good. I'll give it a try. If I want to reuse the yeast, will the two strains work well together and then will I get the same flavours if I pitch them together in the next batch?

That is so little carbonation I wouldnt worry at all about bottle bombs. I almost feel like you could bottle after only 2 weeks and it still wouldnt reach the 4.0+ levels usually needed for bombs

Fantastic. I wasnt sure the estimated levels for bottle bombs. That makes me feel a little more confident !!

 

[brdb]

Sounds good. I'll give it a try. If I want to reuse the yeast, will the two strains work well together and then will I get the same flavours if I pitch them together in the next batch?

I think that is kind of up in the air as far as if you would get the same flavor profile if you repitched the slurry containing both yeasts because if the Belgian strain took off before the English strain, the English strain would never really have a chance to do much and produce the esters you want. You might be able to give the English strain a better chance by starting fermentation at low temperatures for a couple days, then ramping the temperature up to favor the Belgian strain and get the increased attenuation.

 

[m00ps]

Yeah so far, I havent had any bottle bombs from my wild brews. Its only been a few random others. Most likely due to imperfections in the bottles since the last one was an ESB at just 2.3vol

 

[telp]

Hey y'all!

Thanks for all your help, hopefully you guys will be able to answer this follow up question.

I was reading the Mad Fermentatonists write up on Brettanomyces and he notes that when used in secondary, the flavours produced in primary will be covered up.

Have those of you who have used Brett in secondary found this to be true, and if so, does it make sense to ignore the London Ale III yeast as none of the fruity esters will be noticeable through the brett? (And instead just use the French saison yeast?)

Thanks again !

Calder


http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/06/all-about-brettanomyces.html

 

[trentm]

Hey y'all!

Thanks for all your help, hopefully you guys will be able to answer this follow up question.

I was reading the Mad Fermentatonists write up on Brettanomyces and he notes that when used in secondary, the flavours produced in primary will be covered up.

Have those of you who have used Brett in secondary found this to be true, and if so, does it make sense to ignore the London Ale III yeast as none of the fruity esters will be noticeable through the brett? (And instead just use the French saison yeast?)

Thanks again !

Calder


http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/06/all-about-brettanomyces.html

I would not want to contradict the Mad Fermentatonists as he is, in my mind, the expert on wild brews. So with all due consideration see post #7 on this thread, think Orval and review the score sheets from my last 2 Brett finished beers (below). By all means consider the Saison yeast, it has great flavors as well. The Sacc in these beers are: for entry #1280 an isolate from a bottle of Orval (available as WLP 510 (spicy)) and for entry #1281 an isolate from a bottle of Moinette Blond (not commercially available (fruity)). I think Moinette has a similar flavor profile as the Westmalle yeast when fermented cool.

These are from the Happy Holidays Homebrew Competition in St Louis.

 

[user 141939]

It depends on the age of the brett secondary. Brett works slowly and eventually the character of the brett obscures other flavors in the beer. I personally love that magic in between time when the original character of the beer is present along with the brett.