Boiling hops

[IceFisherChris]

Okay so I recently learned about hop utilization and had to tell some friends who do boils of only 1.5 or 2 gallons. I have had the idea of doing multiple boils.
For example; have the regular boil of 2 gallons and also a second pot of plain water (as large as possible.) Essentially you would split the hop additions between them.

I know of a couple people who like hoppy/bitter beers and I just can't see them being very successful doing a 2 gallon boil without massive amounts of hops.
Does anyone do this? Pros/Cons?
I would understand that chilling would be tough.


Related question:
I have beersmith and from what I have deduced, hop utilization is 100% based on the ratio between malt extract and water?? More malt per gallon means less utilization. If I boil 1 oz of hops with no extract, the amount of water doesn't matter. But once I start increasing the amount of extract (and then water), the IBUs change. Program bug or true????

1oz hops, 5 lbs malt with 5 gallons water = 29.3 IBU
1oz hops, 2 lbs malt with 2 gallons water = 29.3 IBU
1oz hops, 0 lbs malt with .01 gallons water = 40.5 IBU

 

[Netflyer]

When you say massive amounts, what do you mean? Take your beersmith and put in 2 gallons of water and as much extract as you plan on using and then add hops as needed to get you your IBU's. Beersmith calculates the dilution for when you will add the top off water to give your final volume. Just tell it what your final volume is. The more water you use towards that final volume the greater the hop utilization will be and the less hops you will have to use. For this to happen you do have to correctly set up your 'Brew Pot' to tell the program what you have and what your final volume should be. If you just lower your final volume from 5 gal to 2 gal and your malt from 5 to 2 I would expect the hops to be the same. However, if you set up your brewpot to make 2 gal and tell it you will use 3 gal. of top off water (assuming no evaporation and this is of course not true evap is 7-20%) then the IBU would change... So try the same malt 5# w/1 oz of any hops. Set the final volume to 5 gal and the brewpot to 5% evap, 5 gal final and put in 0 gal of top off... note the IBU's, now set the top off to 3 gal and note the IBU's... Not the same the IBU's are much higher when you increase the boil size because more water touches the hops as it is boiling.

Meanwhile I'm not sure what you did to get your results... if I take 5# of Amber liquid extract and put in a 5 gal. full boil, that means my top off of my kettle is set to 0 and 5 gal final volume is selected, if I do that with 1 oz of centennial hops I get an IBU of 39.

Now if I change the boil to 2 gal with no top off and go to 2# of Amber liquid extract with the same oz of centennial I get an IBU of 97.3 So I can't duplicate your results...

I can assure you that you can create a very hoppy beer as an extract brewer, and to do so you won't need more than 2 oz of a good bittering hop and a couple of oz of some aroma and finishing hops. Not sure if it is worth splitting the boil for more hoppiness but I suppose you might use less hops.. but consider the energy for the 2nd boil, has to cost you more than the extra hops, no?

 

[Grizzlybrew]

Hop utilization is connected to the gravity of the wort and the length of the boil, regardless of volume. Of course, if you change volumes and hold the grain bill the same, the gravity changes. Volume enters the equation when you are determining IBU's, not utilization.

Also, remember, for the most part, utilization usually refers to the isomerization of acids and thus impact the bittering qualities of hops more than flavor/aroma, although I believe larger volumes of wort would extract greater quantities of oils from the hops just due to (what I'll deem) equilibrium issues.

So, a partial-boil IPA wouldn't necessarily require a ton of hops all around, but really just an increase in the bittering addition.

 

[IceFisherChris]

Sorry I didnt literally mean like a pound of hops.. but a good percentage more.
If I take a recipe that I make with a 5 gallon boil and then change it to a 2 gallon boil, the IBU drops from 72.2 to 40.1. I didn't have Beersmith set to calculate boil volume for me, I changed in manually so I could see how the volume affects things. But anyways, to me this is significant. I would have to bump up my hops from 2 ounces to 4.15 ounces just to get the same IBU. That's $7 worth of extra hops (from the local shop because we dont buy in bulk yet.) That's the whole reason for this post. I'm trying to get the MAX hop utilization from the kit.
I hope I'm not doing something wrong with beersmith. Keeping all other variables the same, when you change your boil volume from 5 gallons to 2 gallons, what kind of difference do you get??


For the numbers I gave, I was referring to whether or not the total amount of water affects the utilization. But it seems that its just the gravity, as Grizzly stated. I wasn't necessarily wanting to connect that with my first question, so kinda just disregard those numbers.

My main question is just whether or not it would be worth boiling some of the bittering hops in a seperate pot of plain water so we don't have to pay the extra money to use more (that would make us loose a little more wort do to trub too...)
After some searching, it seems that a late extract addition would be a better alternative???

 

[Grizzlybrew]

My main question is just whether or not it would be worth boiling some of the bittering hops in a seperate pot of plain water so we don't have to pay the extra money to use more

Just buy a bigger pot and start doing full-batch boils... done.

 

[IceFisherChris]

In an ideal world, we all would have a kettle big enough for a full boil. My friends and I are poor college kids.. I just that I put more of my budget to brewing. They can't even believe that I use liquid yeast. It won't work convincing them to spend $60+ on a decent size kettle.

 

[Netflyer]

Hang on dude, let's talk real world here... Which hops are you using, what is your target IBU and what style beer are ya brewin'? Do you want really want 70 IBU's? Tell me your style target, your IBU target and which grains and hops you are using. Meanwhile if you shop around for hops you can find good deals but sort of what I'm getting at, or trying to get at is that for the same money per oz there are some very potent bittering hops like Admiral, chinook, tomahawk, magnum, etc etc. In many cases one oz of these is like two oz of mid level alpha hops. Check rebel brewer's hop prices I checked, here ya go: http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/products/Cascade-Hops-(US)-%2d-1oz.-Pellets.html
Cascade at 7.2 Alpha for freakin' .99/oz... So you can get 14.4 alpha for 1.98 (2 oz) that should do ya just fine... or 4 oz for under 4 bucks...

 

[IceFisherChris]

I appreciate your time but I think you guys are getting too technical here. All I'm asking is if its possible to boil hops in water.
70 IBU is just an example and I know I can get a better deal on hops. But the fact is that everyone I know will just buy a kit at a local store and that's it. They don't take stuff as seriously we do. They won't even let their beer age before bottling and drinking.

I did find my answer on a different website but thanks.

 

[Grizzlybrew]

What was the answer? I'm not trying to be a smart a$$. I really am curious to know what was recommended.

I think it's good to learn about different practices even if you don't necessarily implement them yourself.

 

[IceFisherChris]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/boiling-hops-alone-water-125135/
There is a link at the bottom of the first page. Watch the video and they talk about it during the first 20 minutes or so. They do a taste test of two beers. Same ingredients but different technique
At time 11:30, they talk exactly about what I was wondering.

John Palmer and some other guy were worried about "grassy off flavors" in the beer if you boil hops in plain water. Their experiment yielded none of the flavors. While not scientific.. good enough for me. Their recommendation would be to add just some of the malt.

 

[david_42]

Simple answer: yes, boiling part of your bittering hops in your make-up water will increase the final IBUs of your beer. Flavor/aroma, won't change. You could even boil the day before and chill the make-up water.

If you don't have the option of doing a full boil, this makes a great deal of sense.

 

[IceFisherChris]

Thanks David!

 

[Brewkowski]

I am really curious on this subject because I've been wanting to 1) brew an IPA/APA using partial boiling 2) Make two beers out of one brew kettle basically.

What I was thinking was something like an APA made with some Simcoe or Sorachi(LHBS says they have it) with some other flavor hops, but try to use high AA to make up for a partial boil, then a bill like Pale Malt, Munich, Carmel 60 and DME for a 4 gal boil. Then split that into two batches and add some steeped grains like Chocolate Malt, Honey Malt, Biscuit Malt to one of those batches to have an APA and an American Brown ale.
Hop utilization seems to be the biggest obstacle, but possible manageable for a mid level IBU for the style. Could hops be added to the steeping grains even though they wouldn't boil for a significant amount of time? Just trying to think of ways of getting more variety of beers with minimum time and existing equipment.
I do like the idea of boiling some hop tea the day before and chilling it, just need to add a 1lb of DME to help that I guess.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Related question:
I have beersmith and from what I have deduced, hop utilization is 100% based on the ratio between malt extract and water?? More malt per gallon means less utilization. If I boil 1 oz of hops with no extract, the amount of water doesn't matter. But once I start increasing the amount of extract (and then water), the IBUs change. Program bug or true????

1oz hops, 5 lbs malt with 5 gallons water = 29.3 IBU
1oz hops, 2 lbs malt with 2 gallons water = 29.3 IBU
1oz hops, 0 lbs malt with .01 gallons water = 40.5 IBU

Actually, according to Papazian...the maximum hop bitterness extraction utilization is only 30%. This is achieved in a 1 gal boil with 1 lb of DME and 1 oz of hops resulting in a 1.040 gravity.

If the gravity of the wort is greater than 1.040 the result in less hop utilization and vice versa.

 

[IceFisherChris]

Actually, according to Papazian...the maximum hop bitterness extraction utilization is only 30%. This is achieved in a 1 gal boil with 1 lb of DME and 1 oz of hops resulting in a 1.040 gravity.

If the gravity of the wort is greater than 1.040 the result in less hop utilization and vice versa.

You mean that the best utilization is at 1.040 ??? Because that doesn't make sense to what I have been seeing.

 

[homebrewer_99]

You mean that the best utilization is at 1.040 ??? Because that doesn't make sense to what I have been seeing.

Yes. But this info comes from Mr. Homebrewer himself...Charlie Papazian..., not me.

If you have a copy of The New Complete Joy of Home Brewing, there's a Hop Utilization Chart (where this info is located)...on page 268 that's based on density of wort and boiling time.

If you have a copy of The Complete Joy of Home Brewing, 3rd edition, it's on page 258.

I've been using that formula since 1994.