Bohemian Pilsner starter options

[rrhoads]

Hi.
I am currently making a starter for a 10 gallon batch of Jamil's recipe for Bohemian Lager. I currently have 5 liters of starter in my flask, on a stir plate. The starter was stepped up from 2 to 5 liters today and is bubbling away nicely. The only problem is the recipe calls for a 9 liter starter per 5 gallon batch. As I am doing 10 gallons, my starter would need to be 18 liters. Is this correct? I am out of space in the 5 liter flask, so I am thinking I should decant the wort, place the remaining yeast in a sterilized fermenter, add 13 liters of wort, decant when ready, and pitch. Is this how I would have to do it? Is there an easier way. Seems crazy to use almost a 5 gallon batch of wort starter to make a 10 batch of beer. Thoughts?

 

[WI_Wino]

Seems crazy to use almost a 5 gallon batch of wort starter to make a 10 batch of beer.

Agreed. I would make 5 gallons of beer and use the resulting yeast for your 10 gallon batch.

 

[VictoryAle]

I use the Brewer's Friend Yeast Calculator. According to it, going from 2 liters up to 5 liters, and using a stir plate for 10 gallons of 1.050 wort will give you a solid 1.8 million cells/ml/degree plato. This is assuming you are using a yeast pack that is only about 2 weeks old, and the setting I used was 'C.White stir plate', which is the more conservative option..

 

[PINOTPHELIA]

Which yeast are you using in this starter?

 

[rrhoads]

Interesting. My yeast is White Labs wlp 800 Pilsner yeast. The yeast has been in my fridge. The packaging date was November 30th 2015, but has a best before date of May 2016. So you are saying a fresher yeast would require a smaller starter, Victory Ale? 5 liters is a big step down from 18 in the recipe.

 

[VictoryAle]

rrhoads, using an older packet will provide you with a smaller cell count, and so the finished starter will also contain a smaller cell count as well. Entering the date of manufacture into Brewer's Friend's calculator shows me that the pack you used would have provided you with about 27% of the original cell count by the time you used it. While I normally trust this calculator, it's telling me you could take your finished 5 liter starter, decant, take the yeast and make another, smaller (3 liters) starter to get an ample amount of yeast, but I don't know if I really trust that - I'm not sure all those cells from starter #2 would get enough food from another 3 liter starter to more than double the count - this scenario might be going beyond the calculator's math capabilities.

Had you used a smack pack manufactured no more than 4 weeks prior to use, you'd have an appropriate count using the starters you've made. Are you able to get your hands on one or two newer packs? Two packs would enable you to speed up/eliminate the step-up process.

Again, this is how I would do things. I am not really sure about the process you were asking about in your original post.

 

[rrhoads]

Cool. You have some good information there. Thanks. I'll probably just pitch another vial with the starter. I'm just curious why the recipe could call for 9 liters of starter per 5 gallon batch?

 

[RM-MN]

Cool. You have some good information there. Thanks. I'll probably just pitch another vial with the starter. I'm just curious why the recipe could call for 9 liters of starter per 5 gallon batch?

it's probably bad info based on misconceptions. Much of the info you get seems to be that way. Read this article and compare it to the viability of the yeast as compared to what is predicted by Brewer's Friend and Mr. Malty.

http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2012/12/refrigeration-effects-on-yeast-viability.html

I find this article on yeast propagation interesting too as it compares yeast growth with and without a stir plate.

http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2015/02/yeast-starters-stirred-vs-not.html

With that info to chew on, consider this: Gordon Strong, a 3 time winner of the Ninkasi award, has said that he often makes a 5 gallon batch of lager by pitching a single smack pack, no starter, no stir plate. How does he get even acceptable beer from that when the recommendation would be to use a very large starter for a lager?

 

[mikehoover]

I recently listened to Jamil on two Brewing Network shows where he was talking about pilsners and in both he used what I thought was a huge starter. He suggested a 3 gallon starter for this 6 gallon batch. I thought he was joking at first, trying to be funny. But later in that show he reiterated the big starter. In another show, he described a 5 gallon batch and had the same relative size starter. That is what I am going with on my next pilsner to see how it works. I believe it will greatly improve my pilsner. I typically brew 5 gallon batches so I'm going to brew a 2.5 gallon batch first then use the yeast cake for the next 5 gallon batch.

 

[RM-MN]

I recently listened to Jamil on two Brewing Network shows where he was talking about pilsners and in both he used what I thought was a huge starter. He suggested a 3 gallon starter for this 6 gallon batch. I thought he was joking at first, trying to be funny. But later in that show he reiterated the big starter. In another show, he described a 5 gallon batch and had the same relative size starter. That is what I am going with on my next pilsner to see how it works. I believe it will greatly improve my pilsner. I typically brew 5 gallon batches so I'm going to brew a 2.5 gallon batch first then use the yeast cake for the next 5 gallon batch.

Why does Jamil need a huge starter to make his lager when Gordon Strong gets by with a single smack pack and no starter at all?

 

[gspot]

With that info to chew on, consider this: Gordon Strong, a 3 time winner of the Ninkasi award, has said that he often makes a 5 gallon batch of lager by pitching a single smack pack, no starter, no stir plate. How does he get even acceptable beer from that when the recommendation would be to use a very large starter for a lager?

Imagine that! The horror! The horror that someone would imply that a huge-a$$ starter might not be required to brew a beer! First the suggestion that I can ferment my lagers faster and warmer than thought and now this!?! It's almost like I'm brewing in 1995 again! Y'all are killing the hobby goddamnit, just sending it down the sewer of heterodoxy! <sarcasm off>

 

[kombat]

With that info to chew on, consider this: Gordon Strong, a 3 time winner of the Ninkasi award, has said that he often makes a 5 gallon batch of lager by pitching a single smack pack, no starter, no stir plate. How does he get even acceptable beer from that when the recommendation would be to use a very large starter for a lager?

Luck? Weak competition? He's lying? Other, unmentioned elements of his process make up for it?

Could be a lot of reasons. But the folks who literally wrote the book on yeast recommend 0.75 - 1.5 million cells/mL, and that's what the pros use, so that's what I use. And I've gotten excellent results from it.

Jamil, by the way, has also won tons of homebrewing medals. So I don't really consider Gordon's competition record to be a distinguishing factor in their credibility here.

 

[RM-MN]

Luck? Weak competition? He's lying? Other, unmentioned elements of his process make up for it?

Could be a lot of reasons. But the folks who literally wrote the book on yeast recommend 0.75 - 1.5 million cells/mL, and that's what the pros use, so that's what I use. And I've gotten excellent results from it.

Jamil, by the way, has also won tons of homebrewing medals. So I don't really consider Gordon's competition record to be a distinguishing factor in their credibility here.

It isn't the credibility that I'm questioning, I want to know what the differences are in their processes that allow one to pitch a small amount of yeast while the other needs a huge amount. Both of them should know good beer. How can I avoid a huge starter and make beer that is good enough. I don't often know that a day is a brew day until 7 of that morning which doesn't leave time for the starter.

 

[kombat]

It isn't the credibility that I'm questioning, I want to know what the differences are in their processes that allow one to pitch a small amount of yeast while the other needs a huge amount.

It could be that Gordon regularly brews low-gravity lagers, while Jamil favours higher-gravities. Maybe Gordon oxygenates more than Jamil. Maybe Gordon employs a unique fermentation schedule where he starts out warmer, then cools quickly, or something that encourages a stronger lag phase yet somehow still restrains off-flavours. I don't know, all I can go by is what works for me, and that's pitching a huge amount of yeast.

How can I avoid a huge starter and make beer that is good enough. I don't often know that a day is a brew day until 7 of that morning which doesn't leave time for the starter.

I understand, although for me it's more "occasionally" than "often," but I get your point. In my case, I've gotten around this a couple of different ways, including:

• Keeping a stock of dry lager yeasts in my fridge at all time. If an unexpected opportunity to brew comes up, I can quickly rehydrate and pitch 2-3 packets while brewing.
• Harvesting and repitching yeast. If the yeast is fresh enough (1 month or less), I can just pitch it directly, no starter required. I pitch the entire yeast cake from a previous batch into the new one (for lagers).
• Brew an ale that day instead. Use 2 smack-packs, or repitch harvested yeast, or rehydrate a packet of dry yeast.

 

[rrhoads]

All good points really.
The only problem I am facing in brewing a batch of beer and using the resulting cake is the type of beer being brewed, and the yeast strain. The Wlp 800 is almost used exclusively for Pilsners. So I would need a large starter to brew the beer in the first place to get the yeast cake?

 

[VictoryAle]

rrhoads, sorry if I don't follow, but I think the best thing to do in order to get an appropriate count of the healthiest yeast possible is to make a starter on a stir plate and step it up once. Use a smack pack that is no older than a couple months and you can be assured you'll have enough yeast if you start with a 2 liter starter, decant after 3 days, make a 5 liter starter with the first starter's yeast, and pitch to your wort 2 or 3 days later.

If you really want to make one huge starter (which is what you'll be doing if you make a small beer, and then ferment your pilsner with the resulting yeast cake), it'll have to be a very large batch - I don't think it'd be worth all the extract/grain you'd be using just to get a good cell count. In fact, I'm not sure that even a 5 gallon 'starter' would give you the count you need for a 10 gallon batch, and if it did, you'd be wasting a lot of extract/grain on it.

Does this make sense?

 

[rrhoads]

I just had a huge reply written for this and I erased it by accident. It's late and I don't want to type it again. Lol.
The bottom line is I chilled the 5 liter starter to 40f, pitched, and within 24 hours I had decent krausen going.
Right now I have a nice inch and a half of krausen sitting at 45f. I'm thinking the article that RM-MN linked to about the effects of refrigeration, has some merit. I think next time I will do as Victory Ale said and step up once. Chilling and decanting the first 2 liters then stepping to 5, decanting then pitching at 40f or so. Thanks again for all the help. I'll keep you guys updated as things progress.