German Pils Bo Berry Pils (West Coast Pilsner)

[dirty_martini]

What's everyone's preferred yeast? I've been doing a ton of split batch pilsners with various Escarpment vs diamond and W34/70 and every time liquid yeast beats dry hands down in my opinion, though, I'd give w34/70 the edge over diamond.

I want to give this recipe a go again now that I've really ironed out my pilsner attenuation issues.

I’ve done it with liquid and dry. My liquid lager yeast of choice is omega Bayern, which is the Augustiner strain. But I’ve come to learn that for this specific recipe (and cold ipa too), 34/70 is the superior yeast. And before you focus on dry or liquid being superior, know that the majority of pro brewers using 34/70 are using the fermentis dry.

 

[dirty_martini]

In case anyone missed this, a west coast Pilsner round table featuring Bob from highland park along with brewers from Firestone and humble sea. One thing i took from this, Timbos boil hops have switched from sterling or Saphir to adeena exclusively now.

 

[Andre3000]

I’ve done it with liquid and dry. My liquid lager yeast of choice is omega Bayern, which is the Augustiner strain. But I’ve come to learn that for this specific recipe (and cold ipa too), 34/70 is the superior yeast. And before you focus on dry or liquid being superior, know that the majority of pro brewers using 34/70 are using the fermentis dry.

Yes they are. I have heard it first hand from them. However I've done several split batches between liquid and dry and liquid always comes out on top in my opinion. However the w34/70 vs Isar was quite close.

 

[nyer]

I made the timbo clone on Monday and cooled to fermentation temp in my chamber until Tuesday. I made a starter for the 34/70 3 times and pitched Tuesday morning, by the afternoon it was already going. By Wednesday it was cranking and this morning it was already slowing down. It already went from 1053 to 1012, that's crazy for a lager yeast fermenting at 56. Easily the fastest lager fermentation I've ever had. Dry hops are going in tomorrow.

 

[nyer]

Just kegged this and it smells amazing, I can't wait for it to carb up.

 

[nyer]

I've only had this in the keg on gas for a week and it's already superb. This is such a nice clean easy drinking beer, it smells and tastes like an excellent ipa except it has less bitterness and it's dry and crisp. I'm thinking this is my favorite beer I've made in over 20 years of homebrewing. I believe this one will earn a permanent position in my kegerator.

 

[dirty_martini]

I've only had this in the keg on gas for a week and it's already superb. This is such a nice clean easy drinking beer, it smells and tastes like an excellent ipa except it has less bitterness and it's dry and crisp. I'm thinking this is my favorite beer I've made in over 20 years of homebrewing. I believe this one will earn a permanent position in my kegerator.

Did you make any tweaks to it or did you follow the recipe as written?

 

[nyer]

Did you make any tweaks to it or did you follow the recipe as written?

Exactly as written and I wouldn't change a thing.

 

[nyer]

I have made a lot of beer in the last 20 years and I have to say this one is the best. It's also one of the best beers I've ever tasted.

 

[Brooothru]

This is near the top of my “to brew” list, and the OP recipe calls for WLP830 or other 34/70 yeast. It’s a workhorse for sure, but I’m also planning a split brew between WLP835x (Andechs) and Imperial L26 which I just found out is also Andechs.

I’m looking to see if there are significant differences between the yeasts rather than focusing on the beer. But I’m curious what people who have brewed this beer think about Andechs as a yeast for Timbo. My experience with Andechs is that it’s a great yeast that balances malt and hops, attenuates well and drops clear with time. Maybe not as dry as 34/70 or as strong a fermenter but (right now) it’s at the top of my 4 favorite lager yeasts.

 

[Ulisses4677]

5.6 abv
95% gambrinus pils
5 % carapils
Ibu 40
Magnum
Riwaka
Yeast 34/70
Fermentation traditional lager

 

[dirty_martini]

View attachment 820668
5.6 abv
95% gambrinus pils
5 % carapils
Ibu 40
Magnum
Riwaka
Yeast 34/70
Fermentation traditional lager

Pretty color. I’m sure with that Gambrinus pils it dried out nicely.

Any riwaka in the boil, or just dry hop? I recently listened to a podcast with a New Zealand brewer and they said riwaka really shines on the hotside. Kinda like idaho7 seems to be better hit side than dry hopping.

 

[Ulisses4677]

Pretty color. I’m sure with that Gambrinus pils it dried out nicely.

Any riwaka in the boil, or just dry hop? I recently listened to a podcast with a New Zealand brewer and they said riwaka really shines on the hotside. Kinda like idaho7 seems to be better hit side than dry hopping.

Dry hop and hot side. At 30 min and whirlpool. The dry hop was all riwaka. I would be careful on the hot side it gives you a sharp bitterness that lingers, that’s why I used magnum for most of my ibus.

 

[Ulisses4677]

Dry hop and hot side. At 30 min and whirlpool. The dry hop was all riwaka. I would be careful on the hot side it gives you a sharp bitterness that lingers, that’s why I used magnum for most of my ibus.

Yes the color is from gambrinus it attenuates nicely so I mash at 152 knowing that gambrinus will dry out the beer. I want some body to stand up to the hops.

 

[ba-brewer]

This is near the top of my “to brew” list, and the OP recipe calls for WLP830 or other 34/70 yeast. It’s a workhorse for sure, but I’m also planning a split brew between WLP835x (Andechs) and Imperial L26 which I just found out is also Andechs.

I’m looking to see if there are significant differences between the yeasts rather than focusing on the beer. But I’m curious what people who have brewed this beer think about Andechs as a yeast for Timbo. My experience with Andechs is that it’s a great yeast that balances malt and hops, attenuates well and drops clear with time. Maybe not as dry as 34/70 or as strong a fermenter but (right now) it’s at the top of my 4 favorite lager yeasts.

I have not made this recipe exactly but I have done pilsner mosaic smash in the spirit of the recipe using standard hop pellets and WLP835 that have turned out well. Not sure if it is the yeast or a 3/4 month lager but the bitterness is quite smooth.

I think S-23 or S-189 with their fruity esters would be good with this recipe.

 

[dirty_martini]

Dry hop and hot side. At 30 min and whirlpool. The dry hop was all riwaka. I would be careful on the hot side it gives you a sharp bitterness that lingers, that’s why I used magnum for most of my ibus.

The brewer mentioned it more as late addition book hops and whirlpool, but said it ms a hop that really shines on the hot side. For the most part, those hops are only late addition anyway. I’d always rather bitter with magnum, summit, or warrior if I need a bittering addition.

 

[Ulisses4677]

The brewer mentioned it more as late addition book hops and whirlpool, but said it ms a hop that really shines on the hot side. For the most part, those hops are only late addition anyway. I’d always rather bitter with magnum, summit, or warrior if I need a bittering addition.

Yeah I’m on the same boat brother.

 

[deadwolfbones]

So, took my Timbo clone to Homebrew Con and served it at Club Night. Was one of my club's top movers. Really happy with how it came out overall, just lags the real thing a bit when it comes to aroma. Might be my system, might be that HPB gets to do hop selection. Will def keep making this beer!

 

[dirty_martini]

So, took my Timbo clone to Homebrew Con and served it at Club Night. Was one of my club's top movers. Really happy with how it came out overall, just lags the real thing a bit when it comes to aroma. Might be my system, might be that HPB gets to do hop selection. Will def keep making this beer!

It will always struggle to match pros aroma simply because they have the ability to package with much less dissolved oxygen than we can as homebrewers.

 

[deadwolfbones]

It will always struggle to match pros aroma simply because they have the ability to package with much less dissolved oxygen than we can as homebrewers.

I'm fermenting in a keg and transferring in a closed loop to a keg purged with ferm gas. So it should be about as low DO as you can do without spending a lot of money. But there are always places to optimize.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Meanwhile, here's a different take on kinda the same idea: a hoppy American pils w/ Citra and Idaho Gem:

Grain:
93% Best Pils
7% Weyermann Munich I

Hops:
Idaho Gem @ 60 (28 IBU)
Citra & Idaho Gem at WP (3.5 IBU each)

Big starter of 34/70. Fermented at 52 throughout, under 25 PSI start to finish.

Water profile: 59 chloride to 25 sulfate, just a dash of sodium.

Step mash: 30min @ 147, 40min @ 162, 10min @ 170

1.049->1.013, 4.7% ABV.

I'm honestly surprised how much hop character comes through in this one given no DH and a small WP charge. The nose is all traditional lager but the hops hit the tongue a lot harder than I expected. Mild citrus but big red berry, presumably from the Idaho Gem. Very crushable.

 

[ihavenonickname]

I’m excited to give this a go. I’ll be following the instructions from the HPB homebrew comp. But I’m gonna do it as a split batch with this big mosaic/citra dry hop and the other a more traditional 2 oz of saphir

 

[deadwolfbones]

I’m excited to give this a go. I’ll be following the instructions from the HPB homebrew comp. But I’m gonna do it as a split batch with this big mosaic/citra dry hop and the other a more traditional 2 oz of saphir

Good luck, dude! It's legit.

 

[Brooothru]

Good luck, dude! It's legit.

I’ve got one going right now, Day 8 of fermentation using WLP835x Andechs strain of yeast. Floor malted Czech pils and a pound of Munich II. Hops are Adeena, Callista, Citra, Mosaic and Simcoe to 39 IBUs.

Gravity is about half way to FG. Wasn’t sure what to expect, but the sample smells dank and tropical in a very good way. This beer style rocks!

 

[fafrd]

In case anyone missed this, a west coast Pilsner round table featuring Bob from highland park along with brewers from Firestone and humble sea. One thing i took from this, Timbos boil hops have switched from sterling or Saphir to adeena exclusively now.

Reviving this long-dormant thread in the hopes that some of you experienced West Coast Pilsner / Timbo-clone brewers are still brewing these beers and can chime in.

I tasted an all-Citra West Coast IPA brewed by a local brewery and decided that was a beer I had to brew.

I’ve never tasted Timbo but the 5-gallon recipe posted on the thread provides a great starting point.

I’ve also spoken to the brewer and he’s been generous enough to give me his recipe.

Triangulating between all these inputs and the posts on his thread, here’s where I’m coming out at and the questions I have where some guidance would be appreciated:

Grainbill:

The beer I tasted was 100% Pilsner (like SoCalPils), so whether I stick with that or include 12% Bonlander from the Scrimashaw clone I’ve brewed and was extremely happy with, I’m probably going to hold off on the 45/45/10 Pilsner/2-rot/Carapils grainbill Timbo is using until a later attempt.

Boil Hops: 60m 33 IBUs Adeena

Timbo states 30 IBUs + 10 IBUs 30m, but the 1oz + 1oz they specify seems to add up to less than that.

Since the brewer specified 33 IBUs 60m of whatever hops, I’ll go with Timbo’s latest boil hop of Adeena but plan for the 33 IBUs in the beer I tasted.

WP Hops:

The beer I tasted was 3oz Citra while Timbo was 1oz Safir and is now 1oz? Adeena.

I want to stick to Citra at WP and am debating between the full 3oz or splitting the difference at 2oz this first attempt.

Dry Hops:

The most I’ve ever dry-hopped was 5oz in a Green Flash clone which was good but too much for me (enjoyed a first glass but couldn’t handle a second).

Timbo calls for 5oz Mosaic + 2oz Citra while the beer I tasted was 9oz Citra (but dry-hopped in large tanks which are apparently less efficient).

I want to stick to all-Citra but want back off to either the 7oz Timbo calls for or even 6oz.

I don’t want to brew an Italian Pilsner but would rather decide I’l like more dry hops in my next attempt than to overhop this first effort so I need to lager for a long time before it’s drinkable.

Water:

Timbo calls for a West Coast IPA profile (2:1 Cl:SO4) while some others seem to be using a NE IPA profile far below that. I’ll talk to the brewer again and probably follow whatever water guidelines he used but in the absence of that input I’m thinking to go with a balanced ~1:1 profile for this first attempt.

Yeast:

This seems like a good beer to ferment with either ale yeast or lager yeast (like a Blond Ale) but I will stick to Fermentis 34/70 as used by both Timbo as well as the beer I tasted.

Any advice appreciated. I’m sure the beer will be good - main objective is to avoid overhopping it versus the 33 IBUs / 3oz WP / 9oz DH West Coast Pilsner that I tasted (and loved).

 

[ihavenonickname]

Dude that was too much to try to follow. Are you wanting to make a hoppy lager like timbo or an all citra west coast IPA? Both are great beers I make frequently. Sounds like you might also get something from the “new WCIPA” thread as well, just use all citra. Always a great choice btw.

 

[fafrd]

Dude that was too much to try to follow. Are you wanting to make a hoppy lager like timbo or an all citra west coast IPA?

I ant to make an all-Citra West Coast Pilsner like the one I tasted from Tenma Beer Project (SoCalPils on steroids).

I’ve never tasted Timbo but am searching for it.

My concern about blindly following the recipe I’ve been given by Tenma is that they brew m huge tanks and I’ve read that dry hopping in large tanks can a less efficient / effective than dry hopping in 5-gallon tanks.

Both are great beers I make frequently. Sounds like you might also get something from the “new WCIPA” thread as well, just use all citra. Always a great choice btw.

Thanks for the pointer - I’ll check it out.

Are you making Timbo straight from the recipe posted on this thread or have you tweaked it?

I’d feel slot better brewing that Timbo recipe if I’d tasted it but until then I’d rather try to brew Tenma’s all-Citra WC-Pils (because I thought it was fantastic).

Can I ask you what dry hop loss you plan for (per ounce of dry hops) when brewing either your Timbo or your WC IPA?

 

[fafrd]

Sounds like you might also get something from the “new WCIPA” thread as well, just use all citra. Always a great choice btw.

‘WCIPA’ appears to be a members handle, so searching for ‘WCIPA’ is largely a bust but I did find this thread on ‘New West Coast IPAs’:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/the-new-west-coast-ipa.704268/page-9#post-10320748

Is that the thread you were referring to?

Scanned the whole thread and found lots of interesting stuff but nothing on all-Citra variants.

I’m still scratching my head as to how you can ferment wort with lager yeast and still call it an IPA - did the powers that be even consider WCIPL???

From what I could understand, pretty much all those New West Coast IPAs are using a high chloride to sulfate ratio of 2:1 or even higher (like Timbo) while many of the West Coast Pilsner brewers on this old thread were using a more balanced water profile or even more sulfate than chloride like a NEIPA water profile.

I’ll report back once I lean what water profile the Tenma all-Citra West Coast Pilsner I tasted (and liked alot) had used…

 

[secretlevel]

‘WCIPA’ appears to be a members handle, so searching for ‘WCIPA’ is largely a bust but I did find this thread on ‘New West Coast IPAs’:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/the-new-west-coast-ipa.704268/page-9#post-10320748

Is that the thread you were referring to?

Scanned the whole thread and found lots of interesting stuff but nothing on all-Citra variants.

I’m still scratching my head as to how you can ferment wort with lager yeast and still call it an IPA - did the powers that be even consider WCIPL???

From what I could understand, pretty much all those New West Coast IPAs are using a high chloride to sulfate ratio of 2:1 or even higher (like Timbo) while many of the West Coast Pilsner brewers on this old thread were using a more balanced water profile or even more sulfate than chloride like a NEIPA water profile.

I’ll report back once I lean what water profile the Tenma all-Citra West Coast Pilsner I tasted (and liked alot) had used…

I'd historically never advise anyone to use less hops, but lately I feel like less is more with lighter beers. Definitely agree that it's a pretty large dry hop, you can always maybe DH in keg later on if you really feel that the flavors are missing.

Otherwise Timbo clone is a solid starting place, but it can't hurt to reach out to Tenma about the deets.

Also IPL is out of style so nobody calls it that anymore lol. I think people hated it initially so whatever. You can call it flying spaghetti beer with hops for what its worth.

 

[fafrd]

I'd historically never advise anyone to use less hops, but lately I feel like less is more with lighter beers. Definitely agree that it's a pretty large dry hop, you can always maybe DH in keg later on if you really feel that the flavors are missing.

That’s a helpful suggestion - thank you!

But realistically, if following the Timbo recipe as far as dry hop dosages leaves me wanting more, hopefully the beer will be far from undrinkable and if it leaves me wanting more hops, polishing the first keg off and brewing a second with more dry hops seems like an easier way to adjust…

Otherwise Timbo clone is a solid starting place, but it can't hurt to reach out to Tenma about the deets.

Did so tonight. The Tenma brewer agreed with my thought to back-off from the 3.5lbs/BBL dry hopping level because a small 5g carboy will dry hop more efficiently than the big tanks they use.

More importantly, he confirmed for me that they used a balanced 1:1 water profile, so I’ll plan to do the same.

Also IPL is out of style so nobody calls it that anymore lol. I think people hated it initially so whatever. You can call it flying spaghetti beer with hops for what it’s worth.

I hear ‘ya. Just tried my first ‘Cold IPA’ last night (Wayfinder, which claims to be the originator), and I didn’t taste anything India-like or Ale-like about it.

Whatever sells, I guess.

I’m pretty much settled on following a Timbo-like recipe but changing the grainbill, water profile and WP/DH hops to what Tenma used in their all-Citra West Coast Pilsner they brewed that I tasted.

Will circle-back with the final recipe and how it tastes a ~month from now…

 

[deadwolfbones]

Recently did another take on the Timbo recipe posted upthread and used Mosaic + Elani. Slaps, hard.

 

[fafrd]

Recently did another take on the Timbo recipe posted upthread and used Mosaic + Elani. Slaps, hard.

Been out of the brewing loop long enough to be unsure what ‘Slaps’ means - in your face so hard you feel like you’ve been slapped by hop aroma?

Did you use a full 7oz to dry hop for a full 6-8 days starting on day 6 as per that Timbo recipe?

I’m in the middle of dry-hopping my first all-Citra attempt now so I ought to have some idea how it turned out ~2 weeks from now…

 

[deadwolfbones]

Been out of the brewing loop long enough to be unsure what ‘Slaps’ means - in your face so hard you feel like you’ve been slapped by hop aroma?

Did you use a full 7oz to dry hop for a full 6-8 days starting on day 6 as per that Timbo recipe?

I’m in the middle of dry-hopping my first all-Citra attempt now so I ought to have some idea how it turned out ~2 weeks from now…

Slaps = rips = rules.

I did a 4-gallon batch with around 130g total DH, so around 4.6 oz. I DH'd for about 3 days at 55F. I've been slowly dialing back the DH length, generally speaking.

 

[fafrd]

Slaps = rips = rules.

I did a 4-gallon batch with around 130g total DH, so around 4.6 oz. I DH'd for about 3 days at 55F. I've been slowly dialing back the DH length, generally speaking.

130g = 0.2866lb
4gal = 0.129BBL
130g/4gal = 2.22lbs/BBL

I used 7 oz Citra in 6 gallons of wort or 2.26lbs/BBL, so pretty much identical DH level.

First taste of my WC Pilsner was good but not as good as what inspired the initiative - hop aroma was underwhelming compared to the keg from Tenma we tasted.

The fermentation chamber smelled fantastic during the 6 days I dry hopped so I suspect a great deal of my hop aroma escaped through the airlock…

3 days is less that the 7 days I went and 55F was cooler than the 65F I was at (dry-hopped during extended D-Rest) so I would appreciate to understand your exact process between slowing of primary, D-Rest, dry-hop and cold crash.

Here was mine:

Dry-hopped on day 5 as fermentation started to slow from bubbling rate to ~60% of peak (from 50 bubble per minute to 30 bubbles per minute).

Increased from 58F to 65F on day 6 when bubble rate slowed lo ~10% of peak.

After one full day at 58F, dry-hopping continued for another 6 days at 65F before kegging and cold crashing @ 32F.

I think I dry hopped too early and am thinking I’ll stop worrying as much about oxygen next time and dry hop after D-Rest and after activity has slowed under ~1% of peak (<0.5 bubbles per minute).

I’ve read a few posts from people who said they retain more hop aroma completing cold crash before dry-hopping, so I’m considering that as well.

So if I allow fermentation to complete and cold crash before dry hopping, the only two things I have to decide is what temperature to warm up to before dry/hopping after beer has been chilled to 32F and dry-hop for how many days before kegging?

Based on your process, maybe I should try warming back up to 55F and dry-hopping for only 3 days before kegging.

I want to come closer to recreating that Citra-only Tenma WC Pilsner that definitely slaps .

I’ve also keg-hopped IPAs and not noticed any grassy notes or loss of hop aroma while keg was kicked over the subsequent 4-6 weeks on dry hops, so that’s another option I’m considering (which would mean warming to 55F or 65F after kegging with dry hops and agitating daily for 3-5 days before carbonating and chilling to serving temps).

 

[Shenanigans]

Lovin' all these NZ pils, hoppy pils, new WCIPA and cold IPA threads. This one seems to be one of the older (most original) ones.
Anyway I only brew for myself and have just ordered 50kg (110 lbs) of Belgian pilsner malt to try some of them out.
Will report back probably next Winter as my brewdays are already planned in until then.

 

[deadwolfbones]

130g = 0.2866lb
4gal = 0.129BBL
130g/4gal = 2.22lbs/BBL

I used 7 oz Citra in 6 gallons of wort or 2.26lbs/BBL, so pretty much identical DH level.

First taste of my WC Pilsner was good but not as good as what inspired the initiative - hop aroma was underwhelming compared to the keg from Tenma we tasted.

The fermentation chamber smelled fantastic during the 6 days I dry hopped so I suspect a great deal of my hop aroma escaped through the airlock…

3 days is less that the 7 days I went and 55F was cooler than the 65F I was at (dry-hopped during extended D-Rest) so I would appreciate to understand your exact process between slowing of primary, D-Rest, dry-hop and cold crash.

Here was mine:

Dry-hopped on day 5 as fermentation started to slow from bubbling rate to ~60% of peak (from 50 bubble per minute to 30 bubbles per minute).

Increased from 58F to 65F on day 6 when bubble rate slowed lo ~10% of peak.

After one full day at 58F, dry-hopping continued for another 6 days at 65F before kegging and cold crashing @ 32F.

I think I dry hopped too early and am thinking I’ll stop worrying as much about oxygen next time and dry hop after D-Rest and after activity has slowed under ~1% of peak (<0.5 bubbles per minute).

I’ve read a few posts from people who said they retain more hop aroma completing cold crash before dry-hopping, so I’m considering that as well.

So if I allow fermentation to complete and cold crash before dry hopping, the only two things I have to decide is what temperature to warm up to before dry/hopping after beer has been chilled to 32F and dry-hop for how many days before kegging?

Based on your process, maybe I should try warming back up to 55F and dry-hopping for only 3 days before kegging.

I want to come closer to recreating that Citra-only Tenma WC Pilsner that definitely slaps .

I’ve also keg-hopped IPAs and not noticed any grassy notes or loss of hop aroma while keg was kicked over the subsequent 4-6 weeks on dry hops, so that’s another option I’m considering (which would mean warming to 55F or 65F after kegging with dry hops and agitating daily for 3-5 days before carbonating and chilling to serving temps).

Hey, sorry, I'm not here that often so I missed this.

I ferment in corny kegs, under pressure (up to about 36 psi with lager), and purge the DH and serving kegs with fermentation gas.

Typically I purge the serving keg with the first half of fermentation, then add the DH charge to the DH keg and purge it with the second half of fermentation. Then as soon as the beer is terminal, I gravity-transfer it onto the DH charge. (Sometimes I do cold-crash for a day or so before the transfer.)

I DH'd this one 3 days, as I said, but next time I'd go even shorter—1-2 days, swirling every few hours—before transferring off, into the serving keg. Scott Janish has made a very good case for short and cool dry-hopping, and I've seen better (more expressive/tropical) results from doing so.