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Blue Beer with butterfly pea flowers

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nilo

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Aside from the discussion on why one would want to color its beer blue, did some testing on different PH levels. Here's the results.

b.jpg


Conclusion is, unless one produces a neutral to alkaline PH beer, color will not be blue.

More detail on my blog HERE

However, other flowers like hibiscus, do not get affected by PH. A batch shown below.

T-Beer.jpg
 

day_trippr

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Lovely color :mug:
How many ounces of hibiscus flowers (dried, presumably) does it take in say 5 gallons to get that amazing hue and depth?

Cheers!
 

bkboiler

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I did a hibiscus Czech premium pils when my first daughter was born inspired by Mexican Jamaica that is purple. I bought about 25 tea bags from the local Mexican market and used between half and the whole box for 2.5 gallons (I can't recall as it was 4 years ago). But the color didn't change much between the kettle and the glass. It was a beautiful light pink color and I handed out bottles to coworkers that said "It's a Girl!" on the label. The saaz dry hop I did wasn't to style per say but complimented the floral hibiscus very well imho.
 

bkboiler

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Also as I was reading about the blue beer thread it reminded me of Miller Clear Beer that they did some time ago... Not sure a homebrewers would be able to replicate that without perhaps some lab equipment???
I suppose that could made blue quite easily?
 

Apimyces

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Yea, plus acidity aside, beer isn't colorless. That said, even if not "blue", the magenta-ish color it gives are still far more intriguing than what hibiscus yields.
 

RPh_Guy

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The product still needs to be palatable or it's kind of pointless.
He asked to replicate Miller Clear Beer. What I said is exactly what that is and how to make it. :)

"Palatable" is subjective. Lots of people drink light BMC.
There's nothing stopping you from adding some actual hop flavor, which shouldn't add color, and whatever kind of yeast you want, which also doesn't add color.
Beer's color comes from the grain and the oxidation thereof (edit: and malliard reactions).
 
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Apimyces

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Hops give color as well, depending on hopping rates anyways. Not really noticeable in strongly colored beers, but adding flavor while maintaining crystal clear clarity is... difficult.
 

bierhaus15

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Clear beer has nothing to do with low oxygen brewing. It has more similarities to seltzer in formulation than beer. Sugar+malt extract+hops= legally "Beer." You can even use unmalted barley with an enzyme package to achieve a similar result. Other methods include micro filtration to remove color....one can could make "Guinness Clear" via the same filtration methods. Oxidation in the bottle will darken the beverage though.
 

day_trippr

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I believe you've pictured that beer on HBT before - and it caught my eye then, too :)
Thanks very much for the link! If I may ask, is the picture above from your October batch?
If so that'd be very respectable persistence wrt color depth and hue...

Cheers!
 

Apimyces

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Putting hops in water, especially one containing ethanol? Try it?

Lupulin is yellow-ish, and the bracts are yellow-greenish. Water, but especially ethanol, will act as a solvent for those, which will contribute some color.

Which is obviously relative to the amount used, of course, and it's negligible in a traditional must. But when you use ridiculous amounts of hops (NEIPA?), or when your base must is ridiculously colorless, then it can be noticeable.
 
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nilo

nilo

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I believe you've pictured that beer on HBT before - and it caught my eye then, too :)
Thanks very much for the link! If I may ask, is the picture above from your October batch?
If so that'd be very respectable persistence wrt color depth and hue...

Cheers!
Correct, picture is from batch done in Oct-19. Planning to brew another one tomorrow :yes:
 
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nilo

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Putting hops in water, especially one containing ethanol? Try it?

Lupulin is yellow-ish, and the bracts are yellow-greenish. Water, but especially ethanol, will act as a solvent for those, which will contribute some color.

Which is obviously relative to the amount used, of course, and it's negligible in a traditional must. But when you use ridiculous amounts of hops (NEIPA?), or when your base must is ridiculously colorless, then it can be noticeable.
Here's a sample of two hop tea, one with 2oz/5gal and another with 4oz/5gal, boiled for 15min and through a coffee filter. I assume the alcohol content in beer doesn't extract any more colors as hops are added during boil of wort when no alcohol is present. I also believe that color will fade with time by decantation. But yes, it gives some color.

upload_2020-1-17_17-48-17.png
 

RPh_Guy

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^ neither of those samples are clarified, and they've both been oxidized.

This is the science subforum. I don't think I'm out of line asking for some kind of scientific source without being expected to test it myself.

I'm skeptical that hops would add significant color.
 
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nilo

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^ neither of those samples are clarified, and they've both been oxidized.

This is the science subforum. I don't think I'm out of line asking for some kind of scientific source without being expected to test it myself.

I'm skeptical that hops would add significant color.
I find interesting that you believe your time is worth more than anyone else here, you have produced no evidence to claim your opinion, and yet you question others data points. Until you give the forum evidence, your opinion is what it is, your opinion.
 

RPh_Guy

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I find interesting that you believe your time is worth more than anyone else here, you have produced no evidence to claim your opinion, and yet you question others data points. Until you give the forum evidence, your opinion is what it is, your opinion.
Whoa buddy. I'm just trying to find out the truth.
 

RPh_Guy

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Designing Great Beers (p 53 - 54, maybe other sections as well). Basic Brewing Video (June 20, 2006) starting at about minute 7 has a nice visual.
Thanks for pointing these out!

The book:
Ray Daniels goes into detail in his book explaining the chemistry of beer color (chapter 7), which comes from 3 things: 1) Maillard reactions, 2) Caramelization, and 3) Oxidation.
Hops don't play a role in any of these process using a low-oxygen hot side brewing method. The polyphenols do not oxidize.
Many/all of the ways he suggests to lower beer color (table 7.6) are tenets of low oxygen brewing, with the exception of reduced hop mass, and increased adjunct usage (which I suggested to help achieve this goal).

On the other hand, if you let your wort/beer oxidize, then hop compounds will add darkness. This is readily apparent from home brewers making NEIPAs with poor cold-side oxidation prevention.

The video:
We can see that the beer with less hops is darker.
This article explains why the higher hopped beer is lighter: https://beerconnoisseur.com/articles/what-determines-color-beer
Note that the polyphenols (haze) should be removed to clarify the beer if your goal is to make a clear, colorless beer, so the hops will have no lasting effect.

Cheers
 

Curtis2010

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Aside from the discussion on why one would want to color its beer blue, did some testing on different PH levels. Here's the results.

View attachment 662061

Conclusion is, unless one produces a neutral to alkaline PH beer, color will not be blue.

More detail on my blog HERE

However, other flowers like hibiscus, do not get affected by PH. A batch shown below.

View attachment 662062
When living in Guatemala, where Rosa Jamaica ("Ha'myca") is very popular, I made a hibiscus infused beer. It was pretty good, just a simple ale with Rosa Jamaica...which adds not only color, but a little tartness.

I made a Rosa Jamaica tea then blended with the near finished ale for better control of the end result and less junk in the beer, then force carbed.

Cerveza%20Rosa%20Clipboard01.jpg
 

bkboiler

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This sounds like the future most disgusting episode of Jamil's "Can You Brew It?" !

In the name of Science!

Also,
, is very weird to watch but I think substantiates RpHguy's point on oxidation. That beer is nowhere near as clear as the adverts from the 1990s.

It is my personal opinion though that Miller used charcoal filters originally...
 

Apimyces

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Are you kidding me? You are arguing that unless a scientific paper claims that hops add color, you will refuse to believe that yellow resin and green vegetal matter will change anything at all to water's color? Even when faced with actual pictures of it? Do you need one to prove that water is wet? That the earth isn't the center of the universe? I don't think that claiming that making a solution between colorful ingredients and water will result in something that doesn't look like pure water requires a peer-reviewed publication.

Sorry, but there aren't scientific papers on every possible subject. It needs to be worth a scientist's time, and have some sort of utility. Why would anyone write a scientific article on the impacts of hops on water? Hops are used for *beer*, not water. Wort is quite different, because wort has color.

"I'm skeptical that hops would add significant color." Define significant? Because nobody's claiming that a small amount of hops will add a huge amount of color or turbidity. Blaming the guy's hop tea color on oxidation? Have you ever even handled hops? Just handling them colors one's hands. Not sure how you could blame oxidation when picking them right from the plant enough to paint your fingers, can't really get any more fresh than that.

/Can/ you filter/treat everything out of a brew to remove color? Sure, pass it through reverse osmosis, charcoal filters, etc., if you want, but then that doesn't negate the fact that hop matter has color to begin with, it's just that your later operations reduced its impacts. Time/filtering/precipitation can remove a lot of turbidity and color, in some cases, but I'm not aware of any case where it will turn a solution completely transparent (without adding chemicals strong enough to turn your brew into poison, anyways).

If you don't want to believe it, then don't. Your book cites three factors that add color. If you want to take this as gospel and believe that since this guy only states 3 things, only 3 things could ever add color, then that's on you. I doubt even the author believes that. Those are certainly the 3 *main* things that add color to *beer*, but it doesn't negate the contributions of hops on water or near-water solutions.

I assume the alcohol content in beer doesn't extract any more colors as hops are added during boil of wort when no alcohol is present.
Nilo, there is alcohol present in the solution when/if dry hopping. And assuming the point of the hop additions is to add flavor/aroma to an otherwise really bland dilute must, dry hopping is probably going to be used. Ethanol is a much better solvent for organic compounds like oils and resins than water is.
 

RPh_Guy

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Criticizing someone for believing scientific research over some kitchen "experiment"..

..

In the brew science subforum.

That's quaint. Have a nice day :)
 

Bauzer

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Read your Blog on this, nice!

I'd be curious if you had a clearer beer sample, how similar it might look to that brackish result. Have you tried taking the plunge and brewing something to completion? I'm considering making something, but trying to figure out how best to implement the pea flower. Seems like adding later may be best, but I was mulling over just tossing it the mash for a few mins. Making sure to adjust the PH to the lower end with Lactic Acid to get more purpl-ish hue.
 

Apimyces

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Criticizing someone for believing scientific research over some kitchen "experiment"..

..

In the brew science subforum.

That's quaint. Have a nice day :)
1) The book cited wasn't scientific
2) Scientific knowledge is rarely absolute, our understanding of phenomenons grows all the time. Each study adds a piece to the puzzle, but none reveal the big picture.
3) Science is about positive knowledge, not negative knowledge. You can "prove" that X causes Y. You cannot "prove" that ONLY X causes Y. Because that would require testing the infinity of possibilities to discard them all. That's not how science works.

Find me a single peer-reviewed scientific article that demonstrates that hops cannot contribute color to (extremely) low-density brews.

Science isn't just about following what a guy with a title says, but about understanding how he came to that conclusion, its limits, and what can be logically and reasonably extrapolated from it.

Denying the obvious because some author didn't mention it in a book isn't scientific, it's obtuse.
 

RPh_Guy

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1) The book cited wasn't scientific
2) Scientific knowledge is rarely absolute, our understanding of phenomenons grows all the time. Each study adds a piece to the puzzle, but none reveal the big picture.
3) Science is about positive knowledge, not negative knowledge. You can "prove" that X causes Y. You cannot "prove" that ONLY X causes Y. Because that would require testing the infinity of possibilities to discard them all. That's not how science works.

Find me a single peer-reviewed scientific article that demonstrates that hops cannot contribute color to (extremely) low-density brews.

Science isn't just about following what a guy with a title says, but about understanding how he came to that conclusion, its limits, and what can be logically and reasonably extrapolated from it.

Denying the obvious because some author didn't mention it in a book isn't scientific, it's obtuse.
Well said!
I will concede hops add green, blue, orange, red, or whatever color you say. :) Cheers!
 

Jayjay1976

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Well said!
I will concede hops add green, blue, orange, red, or whatever color you say. :) Cheers!
I really can't stomach your hubris any longer. I'm going to put you on ignore and save myself the frustration of trying to ignore your nasty attitude.
 
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