Blowtie spunding valve

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

RickyLopez

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
68
Reaction score
2
Location
Whittier
I can’t get this thing to work- but I’m almost sure I’m not setting it correctly!

So, I pressurized a keg at 15 PSI, connected the blowtie and set it for 15 PSI.

now, when I hook it up to my fermenter, it doesn’t seem to be letting any gas out!!!! The dial went all the way around the gauge!!!! So, it’s not letting gas escape, from what it seems.

help???
 

Attachments

  • D4ABD2C3-2CF4-4C6F-8C39-0BE1005774CA.jpeg
    D4ABD2C3-2CF4-4C6F-8C39-0BE1005774CA.jpeg
    1.6 MB · Views: 32

McMullan

wort maker
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
1,849
Reaction score
2,335
How was the spunding valve set to 15 psi? If you connect it to a vessel pressurised to 15psi the guage reads 15psi. If the valve is set for a higher pressure the guage is going to creep up when connected to an FV during fermentation.
 

Golddiggie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2010
Messages
13,755
Reaction score
1,895
Location
Living free in the 603
What does it do when you release the pressure from the Blowtie? When I used them, I never had an issue. Then again I also made sure to have it going into a jar of Starsan so that I could SEE gas escaping. Ensuring that I had it set to the correct level.
 

DuncB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2019
Messages
2,567
Reaction score
1,480
Location
Paremata New Zealand
Firstly when you had your keg to test from at 15 psi that was a pressure checked with another gauge? Yes I'm assuming.

When you attached your blowtie turn the yellow " key " around clockwise this increases the pressure setting that the blowtie will " blow off " So will be well above your 15 psi.
Then turn back anticlockwise until you get gas coming out of the end of the spunding valve. That is around your set pressure that you want. It will need fine tuning around this, just because it's coming out at 15 psi doesn't necessarily mean that it will stop at 14 psi it might be 10 psi so watch out for this.
If you have a jumper connector you can tune it of a CO2 cylinder with a regulator more accurately. But you'll get there fine tweaking it on a ferment.

PS if you've fitted a non return ball lock like I did once through ignorance to your blowtie no gas will come out at all and you get a very high pressure ferment.
 
OP
OP
RickyLopez

RickyLopez

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
68
Reaction score
2
Location
Whittier
How was the spunding valve set to 15 psi? If you connect it to a vessel pressurised to 15psi the guage reads 15psi. If the valve is set for a higher pressure the guage is going to creep up when connected to an FV during fermentation.
Should I twist the knob counter clockwise?
how should I set it initially?
 
OP
OP
RickyLopez

RickyLopez

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
68
Reaction score
2
Location
Whittier
Firstly when you had your keg to test from at 15 psi that was a pressure checked with another gauge? Yes I'm assuming.

When you attached your blowtie turn the yellow " key " around clockwise this increases the pressure setting that the blowtie will " blow off " So will be well above your 15 psi.
Then turn back anticlockwise until you get gas coming out of the end of the spunding valve. That is around your set pressure that you want. It will need fine tuning around this, just because it's coming out at 15 psi doesn't necessarily mean that it will stop at 14 psi it might be 10 psi so watch out for this.
If you have a jumper connector you can tune it of a CO2 cylinder with a regulator more accurately. But you'll get there fine tweaking it on a ferment.

PS if you've fitted a non return ball lock like I did once through ignorance to your blowtie no gas will come out at all and you get a very high pressure ferment.

Non return ball lock- I’m using the one that came assembled with my Fermzilla. How should I confirm this?
 

DuncB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2019
Messages
2,567
Reaction score
1,480
Location
Paremata New Zealand
Non return ball lock- I’m using the one that came assembled with my Fermzilla. How should I confirm this?
Looks like they are difficult to get now but they look like this,

I've got them on all my kegs stops back flow, probably over kill.

When you attached your blowtie turn the yellow " key " around clockwise this increases the pressure setting that the blowtie will " blow off " So will be well above your 15 psi.
Then turn back anticlockwise until you get gas coming out of the end of the spunding valve.
Counter clockwise is a different way of saying anticlockwise. Or lefty loosey righty tighty.

I would screw the yellow key in and out a few times to gentle tightness, just to make sure it's loosened up okay. They have a diaphragm inside the valve which could be a bit stiff or stuck if it's been on the shelf a while.
 

Bobby_M

Vendor and Brewer
HBT Sponsor
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
26,414
Reaction score
6,345
Location
Whitehouse Station
No, but is it supposed to? Wouldn’t it only release has if the PSI exceeds the set amount?

Yes, but you said you set the blowtie for 15psi, which you cannot actually do unless you attach it to something with pressure higher than 15 and turn the knob until it vents DOWN to 15. The knob is the control. The gauge is the confirmation.

Another way to look at it is if the blowtie was set to vent at 20psi via the knob position (and you don't know this yet because you can't know it yet), and you connect it to a keg that has 10psi in it. The gauge will read 10 psi and it will not vent. Ok, so you remove the blowtie and put 5 more psi in the keg and reconnect.

Keg=15 Blowtie reads 15, no vent
Keg=20 Blowtie reads 20, no vent
Keg=25 Blowtie reads 25 initially and then vents down to 20 and stops. ONLY NOW do you know that the blowtie was set to 20. Now you can adjust the blowtie to vent at any pressure below that... you slowly turn the know counterclockwise let it vent and see where it stops. Where it stops is the pressure that the blowtie is "set to".

In summary, you have to put more pressure into the vessel than you actually want it to vent to and slowly sneak up on it with the knob.
 
Last edited:

DuncB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2019
Messages
2,567
Reaction score
1,480
Location
Paremata New Zealand
or dial it back from the " closed / too tight " position it's currently in.

when I hook it up to my fermenter, it doesn’t seem to be letting any gas out!!!! The dial went all the way around the gauge!!!!

Your blowtie is too tight and needs dialling down ie lefty loosey, anticlockwise / counterclockwise until you hear gas coming out. Then it is spunding and you'll have a rough idea of it's release / working pressure.
They are just the same as a regulator if you turn the knob clockwise the pressure goes up in the circuit and the opposite when turned counter clockwise.
 

Rudeoso

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2020
Messages
167
Reaction score
246
Location
La Feria
I had the same issue the first time using mine. Turns out it was assembled wrong at the factory. There is flow direction arrow engraved on the blowtie. That's the direction gas will escape. As soon as I changed mine it worked like a charm.

Sorry for the crappy pictures, the glare wouldn't allow a clear view of the arrow. Hopefully you'll be able to see the direction arrow.
20220329_092118.jpg 20220329_092200.jpg
 

DuncB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2019
Messages
2,567
Reaction score
1,480
Location
Paremata New Zealand
@Rudeoso
Seems and looks assembled correctly from the picture it's a slightly different design to yours.
The gauge was working according to the OP statement " The dial went all the way around the gauge!!!! "
Which just shows the spunding valve is in too tight or is jammed.
 

Carolina_Matt

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
466
Reaction score
248
Does the blowtie have some sort of internal check valve to prevent CO2 from going into it the wrong way? Let's say I have it set at 5psi, and the excess CO2 goes to a keg. Once the keg gets to 5psi, everything is balanced. What happens when fermentation creates more CO2? I would think the blowtie would push the excess CO2 into the keg. But on the other hand, once the keg has over 5psi it would try to push the pressure back into the fermentation vessel. Can you put, let's say, 30 psi into the keg but only 5psi in the fermentation vessel?
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
Messages
3,183
Reaction score
638
Location
Eagleville
You would run the line from the fermenter to the keg. The spunding valve would go on the gas out port of the keg. Once the fermenter pushes enough co2 through your keg to reach the set pressure the excess would be bled off into the room.
 

DuncB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2019
Messages
2,567
Reaction score
1,480
Location
Paremata New Zealand
@Carolina_Matt
As @GilSwillBasementBrews says heres a picture giving a hint but this is two kegs being purged ( after they have emptied) . If I'm purging kegs the water pressure exerts a fair back pressure but if you get a siphon going the primary fermenter if a PET one will collapse as the liquid siphon is strong. The valve is one way lying underneath the yellow key so unless the valve fails pressure goes normally from ferment to the open air. In the case of higher pressure mentioned beyond the valve then that would be the restricting factor.
IMG_20210513_000730_1.jpg
 

Carolina_Matt

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
466
Reaction score
248
The part I don't understand is how the excess pressure gets bled into the room. When the blowtie is attached to the fermentation vessel and the output is connected to the sealed keg, where does the excess pressure get bled from (assuming the keg is properly sealed and the connections are tight).
 

McMullan

wort maker
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
1,849
Reaction score
2,335
The part I don't understand is how the excess pressure gets bled into the room. When the blowtie is attached to the fermentation vessel and the output is connected to the sealed keg, where does the excess pressure get bled from (assuming the keg is properly sealed and the connections are tight).
The spunding valve is attached to the gas post on the keg. You could daisy-chain kegs. The last in the chain gets the spunding valve.

IMG_0436.JPG
 
Last edited:

Carolina_Matt

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
466
Reaction score
248
I'm talking about a setup like this, where the spunding valve is not at the end of the chain. It's at the beginning of the chain, attached to the fermentation vessel. From there it goes to a sealed keg. Once the keg has the same psi as the valve is set to, what happens when more CO2 is created?
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20220330_101411.jpg
    IMG_20220330_101411.jpg
    3 MB · Views: 20

marc1

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
1,663
Reaction score
1,259
Location
OH
I'm talking about a setup like this, where the spunding valve is not at the end of the chain. It's at the beginning of the chain, attached to the fermentation vessel. From there it goes to a sealed keg. Once the keg has the same psi as the valve is set to, what happens when more CO2 is created?

I think the valve would not be able to vent if the downstream pressure is higher than the keg pressure, so you would end up with high pressure in both the fermenter and the keg.

I don't recommend using it that way.
 

McMullan

wort maker
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
1,849
Reaction score
2,335
I'm talking about a setup like this, where the spunding valve is not at the end of the chain. It's at the beginning of the chain, attached to the fermentation vessel. From there it goes to a sealed keg. Once the keg has the same psi as the valve is set to, what happens when more CO2 is created?
Well, assuming the PRV on the keg works in time, 🤞hopefully things won't go 'bang'. You have a closed system making the spunding valve redundant.
 

szap

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
164
Reaction score
51
The spunding valve is attached to the gas post on the keg. You could daisy-chain kegs. The last in the chain gets the spunding valve.

View attachment 764474
I guess I don't understand what the OP is trying to accomplish. The blowtie is designed to allow a pressure fermentation. This is how mine is setup and works fine.
 

cfrazier77

Senior Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
891
Reaction score
433
Location
Denver, PA
All Lagers were cold lagered, even before artificial refrigeration. They used a combination of naturally cold cellars and natural ice.
I'm talking about a setup like this, where the spunding valve is not at the end of the chain. It's at the beginning of the chain, attached to the fermentation vessel. From there it goes to a sealed keg. Once the keg has the same psi as the valve is set to, what happens when more CO2 is created?
Put a disconnect on the other post of that keg to prevent backpressure.
 

Bobby_M

Vendor and Brewer
HBT Sponsor
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
26,414
Reaction score
6,345
Location
Whitehouse Station
I'm talking about a setup like this, where the spunding valve is not at the end of the chain. It's at the beginning of the chain, attached to the fermentation vessel. From there it goes to a sealed keg. Once the keg has the same psi as the valve is set to, what happens when more CO2 is created?

I don't understand what's happening in that picture. I suspect the intention was to CO2 purge the keg through the "spare" CO2 from the fermenter but the part that is missing is the vent on the keg. That would either be a gas QD with a hose going into a bucket of starsan or better yet, just run the blowtie directly on the keg gas post instead of on the fermenter.
 

DuncB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2019
Messages
2,567
Reaction score
1,480
Location
Paremata New Zealand
@Bobby_M
I agree not sure why you would set it up as that photo, what is the OP trying to achieve?

Just regard the purging kegs as headspace and the spunding valve goes on the end of the chain and vents to the air. There is no need to set it up as @doogie
just use a pipe with gas connector one end and liquid connector on the other.
So gas out of fermenter to liquid in of keg being purged ( of air ) and then spunding valve on the gas post.
Or gas to gas and liquid connector to collecting vessel if you are pushing starsan out. Then when empty use the gas to liquid connector and spund on the gas post of the keg.
 

Carolina_Matt

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
466
Reaction score
248
@Bobby_M
I agree not sure why you would set it up as that photo, what is the OP trying to achieve?

Just regard the purging kegs as headspace and the spunding valve goes on the end of the chain and vents to the air. There is no need to set it up as @doogie
just use a pipe with gas connector one end and liquid connector on the other.
So gas out of fermenter to liquid in of keg being purged ( of air ) and then spunding valve on the gas post.
Or gas to gas and liquid connector to collecting vessel if you are pushing starsan out. Then when empty use the gas to liquid connector and spund on the gas post of the keg.

To be clear, I've never actually set it up that way (other than for a few seconds to take the picture). I do it like you mentioned. Gas to Gas to push out the starsan. Then gas to liquid to fill up the keg with co2, with the spunding valve on the keg's gas post.

My question was theoretical - what would happen if it was set up that way. The spunding valve is meant to push out any excess co2, but if it's going to a sealed keg then the keg will eventually try to push the excess co2 back into the fermentation vessel. It sounds like the spunding valve wouldn't be able to release the excess pressure so it would build up in both the keg and the FV.
 

Bobby_M

Vendor and Brewer
HBT Sponsor
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
26,414
Reaction score
6,345
Location
Whitehouse Station
My question was theoretical - what would happen if it was set up that way. The spunding valve is meant to push out any excess co2, but if it's going to a sealed keg then the keg will eventually try to push the excess co2 back into the fermentation vessel. It sounds like the spunding valve wouldn't be able to release the excess pressure so it would build up in both the keg and the FV.
That's exactly right and there is no practical purpose for the configuration you describe. There are hundreds of other impractical ways to hook things up but I'm not sure what the point is.
 

OzzyPeeps

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2021
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
The spunding valve is attached to the gas post on the keg. You could daisy-chain kegs. The last in the chain gets the spunding valve.

View attachment 764474

Not to derail the thread too much, but

Can you explain how purging and sanitizing multiple daisy chained kegs works in practice?

I understand the gas out from the FV goes to the gas in on the first keg, which is filled with sanitiser and operates exactly like a normal keg - the CO2 from the fermenter pushes the sanitiser up the liquid dip tube and out of the liquid post, thus purging and sanitizing keg 1.

But where is the liquid out connected to on the next keg?

It can't be the liquid post as this would leave no way for the sanitiser to escape into the following keg?

But if you connect it to the gas in, then how would the air inside keg 2 be able to escape to make room for the starsan?

As soon as there is enough starsan in keg 2 to cover the bottom of the liquid dip tube, surely either:

A) the O2 contaminated air would have nowhere to go and cause a blockage which would prevent the sanitiser from moving any further forward

Or

B) when the pressure inside keg2 got high enough, starsan would be forced up the liquid dip tube without displacing the O2 rich air trapped in keg 2 - and therefore neither purging nor sanitizing the keg.

Being able to symultaneously purge and sanitize all my kegs with FV gas ready for closed transfers would be a god send ... But I just can't get my head around how it would work for more than one keg at a time.

I guess you could pull the prv on keg2 till sanitiser comes out, then close it and repeat for subsequent kegs ... But I'm guessing this would lead to excess sanitiser in your beer ... And also obviate the need for the sounding valve in the first place ?
 

OzzyPeeps

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2021
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
@Carolina_Matt
As @GilSwillBasementBrews says heres a picture giving a hint but this is two kegs being purged ( after they have emptied) . If I'm purging kegs the water pressure exerts a fair back pressure but if you get a siphon going the primary fermenter if a PET one will collapse as the liquid siphon is strong. The valve is one way lying underneath the yellow key so unless the valve fails pressure goes normally from ferment to the open air. In the case of higher pressure mentioned beyond the valve then that would be the restricting factor.
View attachment 764447
Same question ....
 

OzzyPeeps

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2021
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
Fv->gas in keg1->keg 1 liquid out -> gas in keg 2-> spunding valve on liquid out keg2
But what if there are 3 kegs?

Ideally what I want to do is daisy chain my 8 cornys such that the starsan in keg1 is pushed through all of them to keg8, thus ensuring they are all 100% purged of O2 and sanitised.

Starting to think the only way to do it might be to do as you with 2 kegs at a time, swapping the out one by one, swapping the gas out from the FV from the liquid in to the gas in on the keg to be purged
 

OzzyPeeps

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2021
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
That's not how I do it.

FV -> Keg 1 Liquid -> Keg 1 Gas -> Keg 2 Liquid -> spund on Keg 2 gas

If you are using all the fermentation gas, you don't need to push liquid.
Trying to consolidate the two jobs of sanitising and purging into one job.

Ideally one plug and play job for all my kegs in one go...


I am a lazy bar-steward
 

balrog

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
5,365
Reaction score
7,057
no need to push saniziter out
There is enough CO2 produced during 5 gal ferment to purge an EMPTY keg of O2 by running FV to LIQUID of empty keg and GAS of said empty keg to airlock
 

DuncB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2019
Messages
2,567
Reaction score
1,480
Location
Paremata New Zealand
If you want to sanitise and purge then fill to the brim the first keg with no rinse sanitiser, Gas out fermenter, to gas in first keg, liquid out to gas in second keg ( full of air initially).
You need to make a connector with liquid ball lock one end and gas the other end.
Then I use liquid out second keg to open tube and collecting vessel for the starsan.
Once both kegs have been emptied of liquid I then attach spunding valve to the gas out of second keg set for whatever your pressure aim is.
The kegs are then connected gas out fermenter to gas in of first keg, then liquid out first keg to liquid on second keg and spunding valve on gas post.

Don't push liquid thru the kegland spunding valves it's not good for them and not necessary.

Plenty of people just sanitise the kegs and then just purge with lots of the ferment gas. This will leave a very low level of oxygen in your kegs, I prefer to purge kegs full of sanitiser as that way I'm starting with even less available oxygen. A 20 litre keg with air in it will have about 4litres of oxygen in it. A keg full of sanitiser will only have the amount of oxygen dissolved in the sanitiser and this gets moved across so during equilibrium there is much less to dilute by your fermentation flush.

Do be careful to not allow a siphon to set up from keg one to two, if you have a collapsible pressure fermenter such as a fermentasaurus which is thin PET, then the siphon will collapse the fermenter and possibly do enough to squeeze fermenting beer up your gas post on fermenter and then chaos ensues!!
 

marc1

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
1,663
Reaction score
1,259
Location
OH
Trying to consolidate the two jobs of sanitising and purging into one job.

Ideally one plug and play job for all my kegs in one go...


I am a lazy bar-steward

If I was trying this, I'd set it up like @GilSwillBasementBrews but put a 1 way valve on the final keg instead of the spund until the sanitizer was all gone, then put the spund on.

FV -> Keg 1 Gas -> Keg 1 Liquid -> Keg 2 Gas -> Keg 2 Liquid -> Keg 3 Gas -> Keg 3 Liquid -> Keg x Gas -> Keg x Liquid ->
Keg 8 Gas -> Keg 8 Liquid -> one way valve
 
Top