BJCP questions (what category should this be?)

[dawn_kiebawls]

I've been planning a recipe for a while and I'm pretty excited about it. So excited, in fact, that I'm going to take the leap and enter it into my first competition(s) assuming everything turns out as planned.

Recipe is as follows:

Name: Midnight Brewm Rye'd
Type: All Grain
Yeast: The Mad Fermentationist Saison blend (Mixed culture of Sacc. Brett. Lacto and Pedio)
IBUs: 30-40 (haven't decided yet. Open to suggestions. Leaning towards 30)
SRM: 18

Fermentables:
65% German Pils
25% Weyermann Rye Malt
02% Briess Midnight Wheat Malt
08% raw Thyme Honey

Hops:
4-4.5oz EKG (single hop brew)

Target profile of beer:
Rich spiciness from the Rye to pair well with the subtle spicy, floral, earthy notes from the hops while the fruity profile from the hops will play well with the fruity notes from the yeast/bugs. Honey will add some herbal/floral aroma and also serve to dry the beer out. Midnight Wheat was added entirely for a darker color to go well with my 'halloween' themed name, but I think I could/should have gone lighter (I neglected to realize that I'm not mashing the honey so my grain percentages are skewed).


Since this is a mixed culture fermentation I believe this should be entered as 28B, but am unsure because of the use of Honey. Also, I was originally thinking to enter this as a Saison but wasn't sure what to do because of the Rye but I kept reading and realized this is no longer a standard Saison. Long question short - neither Honey nor Rye will get me DQd from competition entered in 28B, correct?

Any other tips or insider knowledge I need to know about for entering into a competition?

As always, thanks for all your help. Cheers!

EDIT: wrong category..

 

[Qhrumphf]

All depends on how it tastes. Rule #1 of competition category, always enter how it tastes, not what you intended.

Brett tends to dominate whatever it goes into.

That's also pretty heavily hopped for lactic bacteria so may not get much if any sourness.

If the rye and honey aren't noticeable and it's not sour, just Brett character, enter as 28A Brett Beer with base as a Dark Saison.

If the honey and rye aren't noticeable, but Brett and sourness are, then 28B, base Dark Saison.

If everything is identifiable as such, I'd go 28C Wild Specialty. Same if Brett and honey/rye are noticeable but sourness isn't (then omit the sourness/bacteria from your description).

 

[dmtaylor]

I think this is a category 28B. The judges most likely won't be able to taste either the honey nor the rye in this sour style, so it's a full-on 28B in my opinion.

I've brewed with rye a LOT, and I can tell you, at 25%, the rye really won't come through in the flavor... and it's NOT spicy, I swear to you. It is earthy and bready. If you want spicy, then add some spicy hops like Hallertau, Tettnang, or other nobles. If you want to taste the rye, you'll need to increase it closer to 40-50% of the grist. The main thing the rye will do for you is to improve body and head retention, and it will darken the color of the beer significantly as well. In a sour like yours, the body might still be decreased by the bugs. Perhaps the two factors of rye vs. bugs will balance each other out which could make for a really great beer. The honey also will thin it out, so I do think rye is a great choice here to help counteract. In any case, you will definitely also want to add ~1 lb rice hulls because rye can be very sticky, assuming it is crushed properly. And do crush it hard, because rye malt kernels are actually a little smaller than barley malt, tighter mill gap is important.

Here is a very similar and award-winning recipe of mine that you might be interested to look at. My recipe was inspired by the major crops in my state of Wisconsin from the 1880s. I had been reading up on brewing history and found that rye and honey were produced in significant quantities here back then, so I figured, what would it be like if a brewer used these local ingredients in a brew, how would that have turned out? I can tell you, it turned out very well! I have also brewed the same recipe again using chocolate rye malt for a high portion of the rye and I think it turned out even better yet. I love the idea of a dark rye beer. I recently brewed a roggenbier as well which also turned out excellent, medium-full body with clove and banana, mmmm.... So anywhere, here it is (note: 3-gallon batch. also note: ignore the DME, I think I was just trying to use up some old leftovers):

Cheers, hope yours turns out just the way you like it.

 

[dawn_kiebawls]

All depends on how it tastes. Rule #1 of competition category, always enter how it tastes, not what you intended.

Brett tends to dominate whatever it goes into.

That's also pretty heavily hopped for lactic bacteria so may not get much if any sourness.

If the rye and honey aren't noticeable and it's not sour, just Brett character, enter as 28A Brett Beer with base as a Dark Saison.

If the honey and rye aren't noticeable, but Brett and sourness are, then 28B, base Dark Saison.

If everything is identifiable as such, I'd go 28C Wild Specialty. Same if Brett and honey/rye are noticeable but sourness isn't (then omit the sourness/bacteria from your description).

Thanks for shedding some light on this for me! I will go by taste more than anything else. My original plan was for this to be a short fermentation and not a long, aged beer to allow the LAB to develop. I've been reading from several sources (Michael Tonsmier, himself even) that this is becoming an increasingly hop tolerant blend so I was hoping for it to ferment to completion and develop just the slightest bit of young character Brett and some tartness from the LAB. In several of Michaels recipes he uses this blend in he goes from primary to glass in about a month.

I think this is a category 28B. The judges most likely won't be able to taste either the honey nor the rye in this sour style, so it's a full-on 28B in my opinion.

I've brewed with rye a LOT, and I can tell you, at 25%, the rye really won't come through in the flavor... and it's NOT spicy, I swear to you. It is earthy and bready. If you want spicy, then add some spicy hops like Hallertau, Tettnang, or other nobles. If you want to taste the rye, you'll need to increase it closer to 40-50% of the grist. The main thing the rye will do for you is to improve body and head retention, and it will darken the color of the beer significantly as well. In a sour like yours, the body might still be decreased by the bugs. Perhaps the two factors of rye vs. bugs will balance each other out which could make for a really great beer. The honey also will thin it out, so I do think rye is a great choice here to help counteract. In any case, you will definitely also want to add ~1 lb rice hulls because rye can be very sticky, assuming it is crushed properly. And do crush it hard, because rye malt kernels are actually a little smaller than barley malt, tighter mill gap is important.

Here is a very similar and award-winning recipe of mine that you might be interested to look at. My recipe was inspired by the major crops in my state of Wisconsin from the 1880s. I had been reading up on brewing history and found that rye and honey were produced in significant quantities here back then, so I figured, what would it be like if a brewer used these local ingredients in a brew, how would that have turned out? I can tell you, it turned out very well! I have also brewed the same recipe again using chocolate rye malt for a high portion of the rye and I think it turned out even better yet. I love the idea of a dark rye beer. I recently brewed a roggenbier as well which also turned out excellent, medium-full body with clove and banana, mmmm.... So anywhere, here it is (note: 3-gallon batch. also note: ignore the DME, I think I was just trying to use up some old leftovers):

Cheers, hope yours turns out just the way you like it.

I've been thinking about adding some flaked rye to further boost the body and flavor and I think this is the motivation for me to do so. Thanks for the input and for sharing that recipe, it looks great! Cheers!