Bittering hops not so bitter...

[MashTun-Kutcher]

I created an experimental IPA recipe that would have obvious malt flavor, but a real bitterness and floral hop flavor also so i FWH 2.5 oz of chinook hops. I thought this would make an intense bitterness but i opened the first bottle today and it smells great and hoppy, but the bitterness is not there.

Is it possible for malts to tone down bitterness this much? Or did i simply put too little hops in?

 

[Golddiggie]

Post up the entire recipe along with OG and FG...

 

[MashTun-Kutcher]

15 lb american 2-row
3 lb brown malt
1 lb 60L

FWH
-2.5oz chinook
30 min
-1oz centennial
-1oz chinook
5 min
-1oz centennial

Dry hop
-2oz citra
-1oz centennial

(60 min boil)

Nottingham yeast

OG-1.060
FG-1.010

 

[Golddiggie]

Batch size??

 

[MashTun-Kutcher]

5.5 gallons. My bad

 

[Golddiggie]

Do you have the AA% of the hops?? Were those pellet or whole?

BTW, for a 5.5 gallon batch (into primary) that means you got about 51% efficiency there...

With all those hops, without knowing AA% yet, you should have a hop-megabomb... Well over 100 IBU there. If I tried to drink that, my face would implode.

 

[MashTun-Kutcher]

I wish i knew the AA's. I believe the chinooks were like 13, i remember wanting high AA so i could get a real bitter brew. Im baffled.

 

[Golddiggie]

Same here... Beer Smith pegs the IBU's at ~160... Figuring the Chinook were 13%, Centennial were 10%, the dry hops won't impact actual bitterness...

How long was this on the yeast, or from boil to glass?

Maybe the hope were so old they pretty much lost their punch... Where did you get the hops from?

I would suggest having someone else try some of it. Maybe someone that's not so hop-happy...

 

[MashTun-Kutcher]

I do drink a ton of IPA's/IIPA's so maybe my mouth is just used to it? But i seem to doubt it. I brewed it on 2/7 and bottled on 2/28, and tasted it today. As for my efficiency, how do i improve thst? Ive never really been concerned with it really. i use a coleman cooler with a braided stainless hose to filter the wort.

 

[Golddiggie]

I would get someone else to try a bottle of that brew... Maybe try another one yourself, just to be sure you didn't just get the one 'bum' bottle... You might want to wait until it's been in the bottle for at least a full two weeks, and chill it down for a couple of days before trying it again... It might be just what it needs to become the IBU mega-bomb...

For your efficiency, that depends on several things...

Do you mill your own grains or buy them milled?
What gap is the mill your grains go through set to?
How much water do you mash with (qt/#)?
How long do you mash for?
Do you batch or fly sparge (shouldn't matter, more curious)?
How long do you sparge for and at what temp?

The person I've brewed a few batches with has a Coleman cooler with the stainless hose in it.. I believe he normally gets in the 70's range. I've been using the BIAB method so far, getting 78-82%. I'm about to do my first batch in my Coleman 70 quart cooler. When I was buying my grain the crush size was set to .039". My Barley Crusher is set to that same gap. I expect to get somewhere in the 70's range for my first batch in the cooler. I'll be tuning it over the next several batches until I get it stable. I typically do 90 minute mashes, and 10-20 minute batch sparges.

 

[MashTun-Kutcher]

I try a bottle per week after i bottle just to see how the flavors develop from week 1 after bottling to week 4. As for the grains, my LHBS mills the for me since i dont want to spend 100 bucks for the one they have there. I mash at 1.25 quarts/pound for 60 min. Maybe next time ill mash for 90 like you do. Is there a formula for calculating efficiency? How do you know yours?

 

[MashTun-Kutcher]

I drink a bottle a week for 4 weeks just to see how the flavors develop but i dont start really drinking it until 4-5 weeks in the bottle. My LHBS mills my grains because i dont want to spend 100 bucks for the one they have for sale. I mash at 1.25q/lb for 60 min. Maybe next time ill try a 90 min mash.

 

[MashTun-Kutcher]

Sorry for the repeat i thought the first one didnt go through! ha

 

[Golddiggie]

I use Beer Smith to formulate my recipes and record the results. I also keep a physical brew log, just in case the digital one goes wonky... Still, Brew Smith is one of the best $21 I've spent for brewing.

I would suggest finding out what the gap for the mill at the LHBS is set to before you get any more grain from them. Farmhouse Brewing Supply mills their grain to .039". Try getting your next batch of grains from them to compare.

I would make sure you're getting all the clumps out of the mash too. I had one mash where I wasn't able to do that and my efficiency was pitiful (just slighly lower than yours)... I haven't let that happen again.

You can also try going with 1.5qt/# and see how that works.

I do like Beer Smith for helping to figure out the water volumes you'll need, as well as what temp to heat the mash water to. Keep in mind, you can alter parameters, such as how much water to grain for the mash, the temperature the grain is, the mash tun temperature (do you pre-heat it?) etc...

For reference, I used grains from FhBS for my Irish Red ale... Used 11# of grain, total, and had an OG of 1.064. The FG was 1.018, because I mashed at 154F. Next time I make it, I'll mash a bit lower.
I brewed a 10 gallon batch on the 2/26 with my brew-buddy... With 26.5# of grain, we got an OG of 1.065 (~10.5 gallons into fermenters)...
I made a partial mash old ale that had just over 11# of grain, plus 3# of DME, with an OG of 1.089... When I make that as an all grain version, I plan to use only end up using about 17-18# of grain to get an OG in the 1.085-1.090 range. I'm not planning on making that anytime soon, since I'll want to get my new MLT dialed-in first...

How many batches have you used that MLT/cooler for?

 

[logan3825]

I am not to familiar with FWH but doesn't that cause less harsh bittering?

 

[Golddiggie]

You could be right there...

Found this online:
"...overall flavor of first wort hops is perceived as smoother, less sharp, and had a more pleasing aroma. Hop bitterness was perceived as harmonic and uniformly bitter. "

So, if you're looking to make a highly hopped brew with sledge-hammer to the head hop bitterness, it's probably not what you want to do...

 

[LexusChris]

So, you have a 100+ IBU IPA and it tastes real smooth? Nice!

Agreed with above... FWH are supposed to yield a smoother bitterness, which is less harsh. There are a couple of good (and technical) threads around here talking about that technique. See also this article... Something about the FWH's extracting pre-boil alpha-acids & hop oils, and that changes the isomerization during the boil... at least that is what I remember. The white paper I read was specifically for replacing the end-boil hops with FWH, at around 20%-30% of the total hops used in the brew. Many posters say that you should consider them like a 20-min hop addition for computing bitternes levels..

A few other factors contribute to perceived bitterness: The density of the wort you are boiling and the chloride-to-sulfide ratio of the water. I assume you were using a 'full boil' volume, around 6.7 gallons or so. With the lower efficiency (lighter wort), Beersmith has the brew at abou 125 IBU. @ 70% efficiency it was about 105 IBU.

Yeast choice is also a factor. Nottingham might mute some of the hop bitterness.

Enjoy the tasty IPA!
--LexusChris

 

[Bentpirate]

Just throwing out $.02; I FWH all my IPA's and Ambers; I noticed you didn't have any 60 minute additions. From first hand tasting; the FWH takes the 'edge' off the bitterness and makes the bitter flavor more 'rounded'. But you still want to add a 60 minute addition and treat the FWH as an adjunct to the 30 / 20 minute flavor addition. As stated above; beersmith is worth the investment especially if you are one for all the math by hand

 

[MashTun-Kutcher]

So I obviously didn't get familiar enough with FWH before I did it! Damn. But oh well. Like you said I have a smooth ipa and I like where the flavors are at so its not a failure by any means. Next tim/e I'm definately putting the bittering hops in at 60 min.

 

[MashTun-Kutcher]

As far as I know beersmith doesn't make Mac version so I've been fooling around with beer tools trial.

 

[RCCOLA]

You should have a Ward Labs water report done. I think you'll find that your water is low on sulfate (aka SO4)

It allows hop flavor and bitterness to come thru in your beer. If there's not much in your water you can get it by adding gypsum.

 

[danlad]

If it is low sulphate water, I can totally confirm the lack of bitter tang.

Lovely, smooth, herbal hoppiness but will never make you do the face even with 2oz of high alpha hops.

Have just bottled a gypsum treated batch, so we'll see what difference it makes...

 

[wildwest450]

Nobody mentioned the #3 of brown malt, that'll wipe out/cover some hop flavor.

Fwiw, my water is very soft low sulfate(6ppm) and everything else, I still get nice hop bite from it. I do use gypsum since I got my water report, it really didn't make a huge difference.

I would never fwh without a 60 minute addition, especially in a "hoppy' beer. Or even fwh for that matter, I don't care for the results in an IPA.

_

 

[MashTun-Kutcher]

Yeah brown malt is definitely the "star of the show" in this beer. I think all of the brown malt and first wort hopping instead of the 60 min addition really hides the bitterness i was looking for.