BIAB top off water

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dudash02

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Noob here and decided to upgrade up to BIAB I dont have a wort chiller. I saw where they added sterilized frozen water to the wort to chill quicker can this be done with BIAB or is it just extract. Can i determine my boil size to accommodate the frozen water without any risks
 
You can top off any wort. Shoot for a target gravity before a target volume though. Most everyone here will tell you to go full volume boil, too. I'd say it makes sense to do so. You'll make beer either way.
 
You could also consider a no chill in the kettle, then chill slightly the following morning with ice bath or adding frozen water. Many work arounds :)
 
I do no chill. Dump the hot wort directly into the bucket. No need to chill the wort unless you're bent on pitching the yeast ASAP.

Just pitch the next day when your temp is right.
 
TexasWine said:
I do no chill. Dump the hot wort directly into the bucket. No need to chill the wort unless you're bent on pitching the yeast ASAP.

Just pitch the next day when your temp is right.
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this never occurred to me thanks man
 
I just did a overnight mash BIAB with "no chill." Let it sit outside covered for ~6 hrs @ 35°. Ready to pitch that night.
 
dudash02 said:
this never occurred to me thanks man
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It's doable if you are very careful, but the risk of infection is greatly increased due to leaving the beer in the temperature danger zone that bacteria thrives in for much longer than necessary. Waiting 2+ hours to chill usually carries an even more compounded risk.

If bacteria ever gets the opportunity to thrive, then the yeast end up losing the battle more often than not. Result = spoiled beer that you end up pouring out.


If you don't have a wort chiller then just rely on an ice bath. Before brewing, stock up on ice so you have much more than you think is even necessary. Buy a cheap rubbermaid bucket, or set your kettle in a deep sink or tub. If you have enough ice, and you stir the wort with a sanitized spoon from time to time, then it should cool down to pitching temps in an hour or so. No top off water necessary.
 
You could also boil 5 gallons down to 4 and after the wort is chilled to about 80, add 1 gallon chilled RO (reverse osmosis) water. Be aware though that boiling hops in 5 gallons of water instead of 6 will reduce your IBUs, so you will want to check that out in Beer Smith or your favorite brewing software to compensate.
 
I also don't have a wort chiller, so I go the ice bath route. I usually cool to pitching temps (67F or so) in about 75 minutes. It's a bit of a pain in the arse to get there, but I don't have the stones to try no chill! :D

Go with whatever you feel comfortable doing and I'm positive that you'll make good beer!
 
bobbrews said:
It's doable if you are very careful, but the risk of infection is greatly increased due to leaving the beer in the temperature danger zone that bacteria thrives in for much longer than necessary. Waiting 2+ hours to chill usually carries an even more compounded risk.
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Really? Even in a sealed fermenter?
 
I've been leaving it in the garage overnight since I started boiling out there--when I first started I'd put it on the front porch in the winter--don't sweat it everybody always talking about it getting infected with something is a little overboard in my opinion--keep a lid on it and you'll be fine---
 
masskrug said:
Really? Even in a sealed fermenter?
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If It was contaminated before it was sealed, or by a component used when sealing, then yes of course. The risk is greatly increased compared to cooling the wort to pitch temps in less than 2 hours.

But I doubt you'll ever come across a 10/10 award winning beer whereupon the brewer took a whole 16-24 hours to let their wort drop from 212 F to 65 F. There will likely be clarity, aroma, flavor concerns compared to not being lazy and cooling it sooner rather than later. I might be wrong, but I believe that hard work, attention, and care offers greater reward for a reason.
 
bobbrews said:
But I doubt you'll ever come across a 10/10 award winning beer whereupon the brewer took a whole 16-24 hours to let their wort drop from 212 F to 65 F. There will likely be clarity, aroma, flavor concerns compared to not being lazy and cooling it sooner rather than later. I might be wrong, but I believe that hard work, attention, and care offers greater reward for a reason.
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Concerning the claim there no are award winning beers, have you ever considered all the beers around the world chilled in coolships?

http://www.worldbeerawards.com/allagash-coolship-red.23629.html

And the claim about lack of clarity has been debunked, several times.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=127407

Not trying to be combative, but have you ever tried no chill? If you did you might not call it lazy. My preferred adjective is efficient.
 
I typically top off, but for the last beer I made I added the liquid I was short during the boil. I just threw the fermenter (sealed) in a snowbank for a couple hours.
 
@TexasWine: I have not done much research on no-chill myself, mostly because my current method of cooling works perfectly for me and I have no intent, nor a need to change things. None of the referenced advantages below really pertain to me. I don't brew 50 gallons at a time and water is free where I rent. Therefore, the disadvantages outweigh the advangtages.


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f244/b...op-off-water-515627/wiki/ind...o_Chill_Method

Advantages:

- Minimal cost (no chiller required to make all grain beer, only a cube)
- Minimal time and efforts required (the time required to chill the wort on brew day is avoided)
- Minimal water required (water is only used for sanitation)
- Storability of the wort for extended periods (wort production does not have to coincide with yeast starter preparation)
- Ability to make wort in bulk and store for later fermentation
- Portability of wort in the cube

Disadvantages: Some research into the no-chill method will bring up some criticism of the method. Arguments against include:

- Beer haziness
- Problems with long term beer stability
- Loss of hop aroma
- Increased bitterness
- Leeching plastic
- DMS production
- And, in the extreme, the risk of botulism (a deadly anaerobic bacteria)


That last part is a real cause of concern... Here is an entire article on it:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/botulism/
 
bobbrews said:
@TexasWine: I have not done much research on no-chill myself, mostly because my current method of cooling works perfectly for me and I have no intent, nor a need to change things. None of the referenced advantages below really pertain to me. I don't brew 50 gallons at a time and water is free where I rent.


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/No_Chill_Method

Advantages:- Minimal cost (no chiller required to make all grain beer, only a cube)
- Minimal time and efforts required (the time required to chill the wort on brew day is avoided)
- Minimal water required (water is only used for sanitation)
- Storability of the wort for extended periods (wort production does not have to coincide with yeast starter preparation)
- Ability to make wort in bulk and store for later fermentation
- Portability of wort in the cube

Disadvantages: Some research into the no-chill method will bring up some criticism of the method. Arguments against include:

- Beer haziness
- Problems with long term beer stability
- Loss of hop aroma
- Increased bitterness
- Leeching plastic
- DMS production
- And, in the extreme, the risk of botulism (a deadly anaerobic bacteria)


That last part really has me worried... Here is an entire article on it:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/botulism/
Click to expand...

the article said:
No-chill brewing, in which hot wort is sealed in food-grade containers to cool overnight, is likely safe if that wort is pitched with brewers yeast in a reasonable amount of time. What is reasonable is hard to say, however, because we would need to know how long it takes C. botulinum to grow to dangerous levels in wort. Storing the wort for a couple days almost certainly shouldn’t be a problem — but beyond that, it’s hard to say. C. botulinum grows slowly, but it only needs to produce a tiny amount of toxin to be a threat.
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I'd say it's a little alarmist to start worrying about botulism or to tell others to when the article says it's probably not an issue even if stored for a couple days.
 
bobbrews said:
Botulism is very real.

Did you even read the article?

http://beerandwinejournal.com/botulism/
Click to expand...

Did you?

thearticle said:
No-chill brewing, in which hot wort is sealed in food-grade containers to cool overnight, is likely safe if that wort is pitched with brewers yeast in a reasonable amount of time. What is reasonable is hard to say, however, because we would need to know how long it takes C. botulinum to grow to dangerous levels in wort. Storing the wort for a couple days almost certainly shouldn’t be a problem — but beyond that, it’s hard to say. C. botulinum grows slowly, but it only needs to produce a tiny amount of toxin to be a threat.
Click to expand...
 
Psylocide said:
Did you?
Click to expand...

You're cherry-picking one indecisive paragraph in a mainly, science-based article in order to maintain your beliefs. At the end of the actual article, they basically say that if you must employ no-chill based on your region, lack of water, inability to chill, etc. then you might be alright if you follow very specific measures.


Here is the bulk of it, which you conveniently left out:

C. botulinum grows slowly, but it only needs to produce a tiny amount of toxin to be a threat.

Post-boil wort generally has a pH of 5.0–5.2, in the range that C. botulinum can easily grow. It has not been exposed to temperatures around 240 °F (116 °C), and therefore the numbers of C. botulinum spores (if present) have not been reduced much. Boiling temperatures (212 °F/100 °C) will slowly kill C. botulinum spores, but you would need to boil your wort for many hours to reduce the numbers of spores (if present) to a safe level. In addition, sealed in an air-tight container, the wort is anaerobic (does not contain oxygen). The small amount of oxygen permeability that plastic shows is not sufficient to let in enough oxygen to inhibit C. botulinum. Oxygen levels over 2% are required for this.

Therefore, if you are boiling your wort, running it off to a container (such as a food-grade plastic cube) and letting it cool overnight — then storing the wort at room temperature for extended periods of time — the conditions for C. botulinum to grow are present, and you are putting yourself at risk for botulism.

I imagine that many homebrewers, upon hearing this, will have some objections. For example, some will say, “But I’ve done this before and never had any problems.” That is true, but irrelevant. Botulism is rare. In the US, with over 300 million people, there only around 20 cases of food-borne botulism in adults per year. You wouldn’t expect it to happen frequently enough that there would be multiple cases of this traced to homebrewing yet. Even though no-chill brewing has been popular for awhile in Australia, how many brewers have saved their wort for an extended amount of time?

Also, producing wort that is not contaminated by common wort-spoiling or beer-spoiling bacteria or wild yeasts is not proof that C. botulinum spores are destroyed. Common wort-spoilers and beer-spoilers are killed by boiling temperatures; C. botulinum is not.

Other brewers may say, “But, pathogens can’t grow in beer.” This is true — as far as we can tell — but C. botulinum isn’t a pathogen. It’s not the bacteria that kills you, its the toxin secreted by the bacteria. (There are mycotoxins from fungi in the genus Fusarium that can also poison beer. This fungus can infect barley and maltsters test for it so it doesn’t show up in malt.)

Also, most importantly, wort isn’t beer. Although pathogens can’t survive in beer, they certainly can survive in sugary solutions. Infant botulism, for example, is most commonly caused by infants eating raw honey. (And furthermore, botulism is fairly common in prisons when inmates try to make their own homemade prison hooch, such as pruno, from sugary solutions.)

Finally, a brewer might ask, “If boiling doesn’t kill C. botulinum spores, why isn’t botulism more common in homebrew?” When beer is fermented, the pH drops — usually to 4.0–4.4 — below the threshold that inhibits growth of the bacteria. If C. botulinum spores are present, they can’t grow and produce enough toxin in the time between the wort being cooled and fermentation finishing to cause a problem.
 
I don't care about any of that, because if it really was a "mainly science-based article" they would at least have some raw numbers as to how quickly C. botulinum can grow in wort.

This isn't a scientific study, this is an article, written by someone who is not a scientist.

the article said:
The risk of botulism from storing wort for an extended period of time is low. However, the risk is real, and the consequences are severe, perhaps fatal. The good news is that it is easy to avoid the problem. I would advise no-chill brewers to pitch their worts as soon as is feasible, and there should be no problem. It takes awhile for the bacteria to grow, so overnight chilling and a few days of sitting around should be fine. Beyond that, it is hard to say. The risk will always be small, but that needs to be weighed against the large, negative consequences.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm cherry picking alright. Cherry picking the part that matters in this discussion.

We aren't talking about letting it sit for a week or more before you pitch, usually overnight. And that's all I've got to say about that.
 
Psylocide said:
We aren't talking about letting it sit for a week or more before you pitch, usually overnight. And that's all I've got to say about that.
Click to expand...

You sir, are truly a master of manipulating information to suit your own argument...

Do you have figures on how long it takes on average for everyone in the world for their boiling wort to hit pitch temps via no chill?

I just read a report that even after 10-12 hours, this brewer's wort was still registering at 133.9 F - That consitutes as overnight and it isn't even close to pitch temps. Even so, you don't need a week. Bacteria can still multiply to rates large enough to overtake the yeast population and effectively win the battle in less than that time. Fermentation only takes about a week anyway.
 
bobbrews said:
You sir, are truly a master of manipulating information to suit your own argument...

Do you have figures on how long it takes on average for everyone in the world for their boiling wort to hit pitch temps via no chill?

I just read a report that even after 10-12 hours, this brewer's wort was still registering at 133.9 F
Click to expand...

I'm not really manipulating anything. Just reading what's in the article... if someone really wants to worry about it, they can take what they will from the article.
 
First paragraph of the article below...

Botulism is a rare but serious condition that can occur due to eating improperly preserved foods. One homebrewing practice that is gaining in popularity may put homebrewers at risk for botulism — using the no-chill method of wort chilling and subsequently storing (unpitched) boiled wort in sealed containers for long periods of time.

Who ever mentioned long periods of time?

Just my opinion, but I feel there is a bit too much paranoia about infection goin round. When I first started brewing many years ago, I felt it was of the greatest importance to pitch the yeast ASAP, had to get through that "danger zone" quickly, OMG that sounds intimidating :). Sometimes even doing so to the detriment of the brew and pitching too warm on occasion. All we had was charlie p's book and an optimistic outlook. These days I've come to realize that the bad bugs aren't nearly the threat I once thought. Common sense and sound judgement goes a long ways....just my opinion and what seems to work for me...
 
If you're "no chilling" in your kettle, that sucker has been boiling for an hour. Asl long as the lid is sanitary, which can be accomplished by either placing it over your kettle for the last ten minutes of the boil, or spraying with starsan, anything that lived through the boil deserves to live. IMO, YMMV, RDWHAHB.
 
Save up your loose change and in no time you can afford a wort chiller. There are a great number of them on the market that retail for $70 - $100. After all the care I take to get the hop profile just right, I'm not going to take any chances of it being altered by failing to cool the wort rapidly after the boil.
 
Before I moved to full boil all grain BIAB, I was doing partial mash, and extract/steeping grains before that. I always added cold gallon jugs of water for top off, which had the added benefit of helping to cool wort, aided by an ice-bath in the kitchen sink to complete the chilling process. (I always considered freezing the top-off water and adding in the frozen water - like entire frozen gallon-jugs, then cutting open the giant ice cube out of the plastic container, but I never made it to that experiment.)

Now me and brew-buddy/bro-in-law do 2 batches side by side of 5-6 gal brews (full volume boil in 2 x 10.5 gal aluminum pots). The bathtub full of ice method works great. The last couple batches we did, we picked up 10-15 big bags of ice at the gas station during the boil. Put both kettles in the tub with all that ice, (mixed with water until the pots almost float - which is more efficient than just ice), and we hit 60-65 deg in 30 mins or less with occasional stirring (every 5-10 mins or so). Surprisingly very efficient, despite the small additional cost of the ice. A chiller might be nice some day, but at this point, we don't mind splitting the cost of ice for 10-15 bags, and it chills VERY quickly. We may take the ice-tub method to an extreme with so much ice, but it works well. With 5-8 bags on previous batches, it took closer to 45-60 mins to cool to 65-70. Never had any infections. Pitch a good healthy amount of yeast as quickly as you are able to get down to temp, and you'll be fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 

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