BIAB - For amateurs?
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Nonsense. It's a legit if different process that makes beer. Don't follow stupid people...
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zosimus
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What are your recommendations for best extraction?
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Perhaps a dirty rumor about BIAB having lower mash efficiency? That's not due to the BIAB. That's due to a full volume mash which can be performed on a $1000 stainless system as well as a $20 high quality bag. I use a single sparge with my bag and meet or beat typical recipe efficiencies by 10%.
Sparge.
Mash, pull the bag, drain fully, dunk in a bucket of room temp sparge water, open, mix, close, lift and drain again.
Either squeeze the bag very well or let it free hang and let a bit of time do the work. The free hang is important, it makes the walls of the bag constrict.
Not just for amateurs.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/wilserbrewerbags-vs-the-brew-bag.576844/post-8043333
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/wilserbrewerbags-vs-the-brew-bag.576844/post-8043333
fluketamer
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biab is a very respectable method of making beer. as said above full volume mash can lead to lower efficiency. but so what add more grain or sparge like said above. possibly this is just a rumor spread by jealous full 3 vessel tiered brewing system users . i would hate to have invested time and space and cash to learn that i could make bier on the stove with a bag. just my 2 cents.
BIAB is just using a bag as a mash filter instead of the grain bed. There is no difference in full volume mash efficiency in a mash tun vs. a bag in the single vessel used for mashing and boiling with BIAB, if the grain absorption rate is the same. But, the grain absorption for BIAB is typically lower than for a traditional mash tun (the hanging the bag provides some squeezing effect that you don't get with a traditional MLT.) So, BIAB is usually more efficient than a full volume mash in a traditional MLT.
The big dog in mash efficiency is whether you sparge or not. You can do a batch sparge with a traditional MLT or with BIAB. The difference between a single batch sparge and no-sparge, assuming the same grain absorption rate, is 8 - 8.5 percentage points. Mash efficiency is equal to conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, and sparging affects lauter efficiency, but has no effect on conversion efficiency. Your choice whether to trade extra brew time for extra efficiency.
There are also some brewing commentators that say that unsparged wort makes better beer than sparged wort, but I have seen nothing definitive on that.
The chart below shows how lauter efficiency varies with sparge method, grain absorption rate, and the ratio of grain bill weight to pre-boil volume. You would do well to take the time required to understand what this chart is telling you.
Brew on
zosimus
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Sparge methods? I've heard dunk sparge is pretty solidBIAB is just using a bag as a mash filter instead of the grain bed. There is no difference in full volume mash efficiency in a mash tun vs. a bag in the single vessel used for mashing and boiling with BIAB, if the grain absorption rate is the same. But, the grain absorption for BIAB is typically lower than for a traditional mash tun (the hanging the bag provides some squeezing effect that you don't get with a traditional MLT.) So, BIAB is usually more efficient than a full volume mash in a traditional MLT.
The big dog in mash efficiency is whether you sparge or not. You can do a batch sparge with a traditional MLT or with BIAB. The difference between a single batch sparge and no-sparge, assuming the same grain absorption rate, is 8 - 8.5 percentage points. Mash efficiency is equal to conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, and sparging affects lauter efficiency, but has no effect on conversion efficiency. Your choice whether to trade extra brew time for extra efficiency.
There are also some brewing commentators that say that unsparged wort makes better beer than sparged wort, but I have seen nothing definitive on that.
The chart below shows how lauter efficiency varies with sparge method, grain absorption rate, and the ratio of grain bill weight to pre-boil volume. You would do well to take the time required to understand what this chart is telling you.
View attachment 859245
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Another thing for good extraction is getting a good crush of your grain. With BIAB, you can make a finer crush than with traditional AG.
Sparging: you can dunk sparge, do a pour-over sparge, or no sparge at all. Depends on the volume of your kettle and the desired thickness of your mash.
Sparging: you can dunk sparge, do a pour-over sparge, or no sparge at all. Depends on the volume of your kettle and the desired thickness of your mash.
Dunk sparge is just a batch sparge done with BIAB. You pull the bag from the mash/boil vessel, drain it well, lower it into a bucket containing sparge water, stir well, drain the bag well again, and then combine the first drain, and sparge drain wort in the boil vessel. In a traditional MLT, you do a batch sparge by draining the wort into the BK, add the sparge water into the MLT, stir well, and then drain the sparged wort into the BK. As you can see these are really equivalent to each other. The difference is in the grain absorption rates. Draining a traditional MLT gives a typical grain absorption rate of about 0.12 gal/lb, but a gravity drained bag typically results in a grain absorption rate of 0.08 - 0.10 gal/lb, and a squeezed bag can get you to a rate of 0.06 gal/lb, or even less. Look at the chart in my previous post to see the significant difference that a lower grain absorption rate makes in lauter efficiency.
Also, BIAB is no more likely to result in botulism than mashing in a traditional MLT.
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Finer crush allows faster conversion of starch to sugar, because the smaller grits gelatinize faster than larger grits. Gelatinization must occur before hydrolysis (chopping starch up into sugar) can occur. In a mash they mostly occur in parallel, as once some of the starch gelatinizes, hydrolysis can begin. In no case can conversion reach 100% unless the starch has been 100% gelatinized. With coarser crushes, the 60 minute typical mash time is not long enough to reach 100% gelatinization and hydrolysis, but with finer crushes 60 minutes can be enough. So, if your mash is too short time wise, finer crush can give you better conversion efficiency than a coarser crush. And since mash efficiency is equal to conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, improving conversion efficiency can improve mash efficiency.
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Lol!
zosimus
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Also curious, what sort of gravity are you looking for on a pre-boiled wort. Just curious, I did a BIAB batch last week and it was 1.03 pre-boil and then finished boil at like 1.06.Dunk sparge is just a batch sparge done with BIAB. You pull the bag from the mash/boil vessel, drain it well, lower it into a bucket containing sparge water, stir well, drain the bag well again, and then combine the first drain, and sparge drain wort in the boil vessel. In a traditional MLT, you do a batch sparge by draining the wort into the BK, add the sparge water into the MLT, stir well, and then drain the sparged wort into the BK. As you can see these are really equivalent to each other. The difference is in the grain absorption rates. Draining a traditional MLT gives a typical grain absorption rate of about 0.12 gal/lb, but a gravity drained bag typically results in a grain absorption rate of 0.08 - 0.10 gal/lb, and a squeezed bag can get you to a rate of 0.06 gal/lb, or even less. Look at the chart in my previous post to see the significant difference that a lower grain absorption rate makes in lauter efficiency.
Also, BIAB is no more likely to result in botulism than mashing in a traditional MLT.
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Like how is efficiency typically calculated?
worlddivides
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In Brewer's Friend, when I make my recipes, I just specify "All Grain" and set the recipe up as if it's a traditional 3-vessel system, but then I just do it as BIAB. And despite that, I have always hit or exceeded the estimated original gravity. For example, Brewer's Friend estimated 1.041 for my most recent batch, and I got 1.042. The batch before that, Brewer's Friend estimated 1.053 and I got 1.053. For the batch before that, Brewer's Friend estimated 1.040 and I got 1.041. So I've never seen any issues with extraction.
We're home brewers here, right? So yeah, amateurs.
Brewhouse efficiency on my last batch was 83%.
So while the method of BIAB is secure and sound, I have ran into issues with efficiency where the gravity of my preboil volume was not as high as I had expected or what my software had calculated. This is happening due to a variety of reasons but the biggest culprits were mash temp being unsteady, circulation (Water does not move) and fine grain crush (Grains not crushed finely).
Mash Temp : Easily fixable by insulating your brew kettle. Either towels, lining or whatever other method, just make your vessel lose less heat during your mash.
Circulation : Not much you can do here since this is full volume boil, but some good gentle stirs during your mash should help resolve the issue (do not go overboard). Also if you save a gallon of water off to the side, heat it up to mash temp and pour over grains as you pull them out, it should help a bit to retain more sugars (probably won't help too much though, I usually skip this step).
Grain Crush : The finer the crush, the better. This can't really be helped unless you go to the brew store and crush the grain yourself, or have crusher at your house. If you get grains delivered, you will want to inspect and crush finer should they need.
I'm still working on the last two, but when I steadied my mash temp, I noticed a huge rise in efficiency. You just need to nail down one method with your given brew kettle and keep it that way pretty much every time you brew.
The simple fact is BIAB is just as efficient if done properly and costs significantly less than a 3 Tier system.
Mash Temp : Easily fixable by insulating your brew kettle. Either towels, lining or whatever other method, just make your vessel lose less heat during your mash.
Circulation : Not much you can do here since this is full volume boil, but some good gentle stirs during your mash should help resolve the issue (do not go overboard). Also if you save a gallon of water off to the side, heat it up to mash temp and pour over grains as you pull them out, it should help a bit to retain more sugars (probably won't help too much though, I usually skip this step).
Grain Crush : The finer the crush, the better. This can't really be helped unless you go to the brew store and crush the grain yourself, or have crusher at your house. If you get grains delivered, you will want to inspect and crush finer should they need.
I'm still working on the last two, but when I steadied my mash temp, I noticed a huge rise in efficiency. You just need to nail down one method with your given brew kettle and keep it that way pretty much every time you brew.
The simple fact is BIAB is just as efficient if done properly and costs significantly less than a 3 Tier system.
100% based on beer style and recipe.
This amount of boil-off is excessive. Either you reduced your volume by half or your measurements are not accurate. I'm guessing the latter.
A good way to check your accuracy is comparing gravity points before and after boil.
((1.xxx-1)*1000)*vol pre-boil should equal the same at post-boil
Say you started with 5gallons pre-boil.
((1.030-1)*1000)*5=((1.060-1)*1000)*X
30*5=60*X
150pts=60*X
150/60=X
2.5G=X
I will say I do BIAB and have done so since I started doing all grain. I would say my OG number both pre and post boil went up when I got my own mill and I crush finer than I got from Morebeer. With that said, I bought a cheap cooler that I have been using as my sparge tank. I dump my grains in after my initial 60 minute mash and draining of the bag, add water, stir them up and have a filter rigged up using the outside of a braided water line some tubing and a valve that I got from Amazon. I found that I have been going above the numbers I get on Brewfather, so I must not have my efficiency percentage right. Either way, BIAB is easy, cheap and still makes good beer in my opinion. Enjoy whatever method you choose and enjoy the process.
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This is what I came here to say.
I agree with several commenters above - BIAB is just another way to do the same thing. The problem some BIAB users have with efficiency is usually because of no sparge or a coarse grind. Both are easily fixed.
I use a "tea bag" dunk sparge method.
If I am doing a 10 gal batch I use 2 bags each filled with about 10 lb of grain. When I ad the grain I mix it well to ensure there's no clumping. When the mash is over - I lift one bag out and let it drain. Then I put it into an old boil kettle and pour hot sparge water (165°F) into the kettle and dunk the bag like a tea bag. Let it drain and pour the beautiful wort into the boil kettle. This is repeated - 3 times for each bag. Most of the good stuff has been harvested and I am ready for the boil.
BIAB is an awesome idea for making beer. let's remove the grain from the wort instead of removing the wort from the grain.
I use a "tea bag" dunk sparge method.
If I am doing a 10 gal batch I use 2 bags each filled with about 10 lb of grain. When I ad the grain I mix it well to ensure there's no clumping. When the mash is over - I lift one bag out and let it drain. Then I put it into an old boil kettle and pour hot sparge water (165°F) into the kettle and dunk the bag like a tea bag. Let it drain and pour the beautiful wort into the boil kettle. This is repeated - 3 times for each bag. Most of the good stuff has been harvested and I am ready for the boil.
BIAB is an awesome idea for making beer. let's remove the grain from the wort instead of removing the wort from the grain.
In this hobby there is always someone who will lose their mud just because you don’t do things the exact same way they do.
I guess I'm a 20+ year amateur then..................
I've had it all- a bucket, a cooler, an all electric 1/2 barrel HERMS, etc, and started using a bag in my HERMS for 11 gallon batches a long time ago. I now downsized and kept the bag. So I have a Brewzilla and a cooler, and I BIAB.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
I BIAB - 2.5 gal batches in a 4.0 gal kettle; induction cook top for heat; 80% efficiency with a dunk sparge.
Grain Crush : I have a mill, I double crush.
Mash Temp : I leave the kettle on the cook top with the power off. Kettle sides are double wrapped with Reflectix-like insulation. Kettle lid is on with a bath towel covering it. That was good for about a 2F drop over 60 min. About a year ago, I added a simple pseudo-'mash cap' - and temperature is pretty much unchanged over 60 min.
Circulation : personally, I never found a need to stir every 15 min (and opening the lid causes a small drop in mash temperature). I put the bag in the kettle then add the grains to the kettle; check the temperature in multiple places, and stir once if necessary to get a consistent temp. After that, put the mash cap, lid, and towel on then move on to weighing ingredients for the boil.
Grain Crush : I have a mill, I double crush.
Mash Temp : I leave the kettle on the cook top with the power off. Kettle sides are double wrapped with Reflectix-like insulation. Kettle lid is on with a bath towel covering it. That was good for about a 2F drop over 60 min. About a year ago, I added a simple pseudo-'mash cap' - and temperature is pretty much unchanged over 60 min.
Circulation : personally, I never found a need to stir every 15 min (and opening the lid causes a small drop in mash temperature). I put the bag in the kettle then add the grains to the kettle; check the temperature in multiple places, and stir once if necessary to get a consistent temp. After that, put the mash cap, lid, and towel on then move on to weighing ingredients for the boil.
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Where does the botulism comment come from? No matter what system you use, the wort still gets boiled after, right? Usually for an hour. I don’t know if I’m missing something, maybe this was a slam on BIAB at one time?
I have never done BIAB. So I’m not here to bash on it or anything. I read some stuff in passing, I never explored it because I was already brewing and had equipment before it became a thing. I brewed my first batch on Memorial Day in 1997.
I still have my Gott cooler but I haven’t been using it as much. These days I have my electric system - Anvil Foundry. I make small batches, 3 gallons at a time. I was thinking of using the cooler again sometimes for stronger batches, as it holds more grain. I like having the temp control the Foundry provides.
If I were just starting today, I’d probably be looking at BIAB as one of the choices. I don’t see how it saves you that much money though. You still need the brew pot, burner, and other stuff you need with the traditional multi-vessel system. The bags are not all that cheap. And what you’re not spending on a cooler type mash tun you’re spending to install hoists and pulleys as a workaround to hang your bag if you have any significant amount of grain. Not everybody has shiny stainless steel everything.
I suspect @doug293cz was having a bit of sport
I use the kettle I've had for turkey stock decades before my first brew. Bag & hoist cost ~$35 together. Eye bolt above the stove cost less than $3.
LOL there was a thread, it had some interesting bits, but was pretty much all debunked.
I brew 3-ish gallon batches. My bag is a home depot paint straining bag, my fermenter is a 5 gallon, food-grade bucket from home depot, my burner is the kitchen stove. I never use a siphon or a pump, only tubing I ever use is for my bottling wand, and transferring beer to the bottling bucket. It can be pretty damned cheap if you want!
edit: forgot the most important biab equipment -- insulated rubber gloves, to persuade the bag to give me ALL of my damned wort!
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If you use the Grainfather, Foundry, Digiboil, or other electric system as they are intended, it is the same thing as brew in a bag.
Yes indeed. OP of this thread has two other recent threads (link, link) discussing the potential for botulism in home brewed beer. Kind of an inside joke for those that knew about the other threads. I apologize for partially derailing this thread.I suspect @doug293cz was having a bit of sport
I will say that I found the (deleted) off-topic responses amusing. One of my superpowers as a mod is being able to look at posts that have been deleted, but there is no longer an option to "Like" them.
And, that's enough on this little thread diversion. Let's keep it on topic from here.
Brew on
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This just in. An ameteur brewer just took the NJ Homebrewer of the Year title for the 3rd time. One of the clutching aspect of which was scoring a 1st place in 3 different competitions and subsequent 3rd place best of shows in all three with a Munich Dunkel lager. Very ameteur but a good beer.
Lots of empirical info that debunks the "_______ type of brewing is inferior." I've seen many comps with extract brew winners. Just a few years ago the AHA homebrewer of the year was an extract brewer.
The people that say BIAB is for amateurs are just jealous that we can make as good or better beer with less cost and equipment than the three vessel setups. My beer got so much better when I went from extract to all grain using BIAB. I don’t think I’ll do anything differently.
InspectorJon
Well-Known Member
BIAB beer is just as good as any other beer!
Says the guy that has never done it any other way (me).
It is really not practical for professionals due to volume constraints. So amateur? Yes. There are a few odd exceptions to professionals not doing it but they are quite rare.
Says the guy that has never done it any other way (me).
It is really not practical for professionals due to volume constraints. So amateur? Yes. There are a few odd exceptions to professionals not doing it but they are quite rare.
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I would argue that a mash filter is the professional brewer equivalent to squeezing wort out of a homebrew fabric filter bag.
Although an industrial filter press can do a much better job of wringing wort out of the grain than a home brewer can by squeezing a bag. With a filter press you can get better lauter efficiency with no-sparge than you can with a good fly sparge.
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I never heard of anybody pressing mash in a 3v system. Gravity drains it out. We’ve been taught from day 1 not to oversparge or overdraw the mash - ph, tannins, other issues. Never heard of this, don’t know why anybody would do it. Again, no knock on BIAB.Although an industrial filter press can do a much better job of wringing wort out of the grain than a home brewer can by squeezing a bag. With a filter press you can get better lauter efficiency with no-sparge than you can with a good fly sparge.
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Take a look at this video:
You can find more here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=brewery+mash+press
The idea that squeezing the grain extracts tannins is an old wives tale. Oversparging is a real thing that will extract tannins and silicates if the concentration of the wort (SG) gets too low. Tannin extraction is accelerated at pHs higher than about 6, and water temperatures above about 170°F.
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There are some pretty determined homebewers that will try to get close to that efficiency by squeezing the brew bag.Although an industrial filter press can do a much better job of wringing wort out of the grain than a home brewer can by squeezing a bag. With a filter press you can get better lauter efficiency with no-sparge than you can with a good fly sparge.
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I'm sure there is someone out there that uses a mechanical press in their garage to get every last drop of sweet wort from the grain.
