BIAB - Bag vs Basket?

[agentbud]

I made the switch to BIAB about 6 brews ago. Current setup is a 15 gallon pot over a propane burner and using a BIAB bag. Ratchet hoist to lift/hold bag. I have seen that some people are using a metal mesh basket instead of a bag. Just looking for any pros and cons to bag vs basket. I do not have any experience using a basket but below is what I come up with just thinking things through. Any others?

Bag:
Pros - less cost, easy to clean
Cons - might tear, could burn if sitting on the bottom and heat is on

Basket:
Pros - stronger (won't tear), won't burn, could use pot clips to hold basket up if not brewing under my hoist
Cons - more expensive

Thanks, Mike

 

[renstyle]

I've seen folks utilize a raised screen akin to a mash tun false bottom in their pots to keep a bag from resting all the way at the bottom, tho I don't think it would be as necessary if you were not recirculating.

While the normal mash temp range does not get into the poly-bag melting point danger zone (350F ish), there is a concern of "superheating" the mash at the bottom near the heat source, due to the insulating effects of the grain.

This is one of the vendor's takes on your question.

How well does the kettle hold its heat during the 60-90mins of mashing? Reflect-X or similar has been utilized by many here wrapped around the kettle for additional insulation, which would minimize the need for periodic "flame-ons".

 

[Jtvann]

Con for a basket is that it doesn’t take up as much mash volume as a bag. I ran into water to grist ratio problems.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I would be curious if the lager holes in a basket would mean you could not grind grain as fine as with a bag.

Note that I have had my bag in the pot with the heat on before. I have thick clad bottoms on my kettles and I use either propane (for my 10 gal kettle) or my gas stove (for my 5 gal one), if that makes a difference. I feel like top rim of the pot, above the water line, gets hotter than the area down below the water line. I experienced a little melting on one bag touching the top rim of the pot.

I also burned a hole in one bag when I draped it over the pot and it touched the rim of my propane burner stand. Those things stay very hot for a long time! Also, my 10 gal kettle is very wide and short, so off the shelf bags that are wide enough are also way taller than I need. Hopefully I have learned my lesson and my current bags last for many years.

 

[Bobby_M]

I've been using a bag over a coarse false bottom for years. While it could have been short term culture shock, I really didn't like the times I tried the full mesh basket nor the Spike Solo basket. With the bag, it self-squeezes as it hangs from the rope. It also is a smaller diameter that I can easily drop it into a bucket. Hoisting the baskets out is a little more cumbersome and you would have to get in there with some pressing tool to get the same amount of draining that happens rather naturally in a bag. It's probably more so that I did 50 batches in a bag and only a few in each basket type.

 

[matt_m]

I didn’t like emptying or cleaning a basket. Bag is easier to do with less mess on both accounts.

 

[Reneauj62]

I am not sure what people would call my process. I would not call it a BIAB but, others might. I don't think the typical BIAB is for me. It cost more in grains to obtain a good efficiency plus I like to sparge my grains... So, a basket designed like Clawhammer (and others), to me, is a waste which is why I did not buy that unit this past Black Friday. The Clawhammer (and others) has holes on the sides of the basket along with the bottom thus (in my opinion) preventing a productive sparge flow. If you have a system like Grainfather (ugg!) or Unibrau (and others) that has holes only on the bottom, a sparge is more likely to be successful. That being said, I still place a grain bag in my basket to act as a filter while still being able to have a productive sparge.

 

[easttex]

I am a direct fire propane brewer and I started brewing all grain with the BIAB method. I used the bag once, then got an offer from Amazon to buy a SS basket that just fit my 8 gallon kettle and have used it ever since. The basket and kettle now form the mash tun portion of my kettle RIMS system.

The basket works. Its feet keep the grain off the bottom of the kettle so you and heat it without fear of scorching. It's easier to man-handle than the bag was and it's probably a push when it comes to cleaning.

 

[odie]

there are countless ways to slay this beast...whatever works for you is "right" no matter what others may say...

Most "systems" that people have are probably a result of metamorphosis over time...every time you brew you think of something you could do differently to improve your results and make your process easier or more fun.

Most "things" that people add are not needed. It's just personal choice. For BIAB you only need a kettle, a bag and a burner. A spigot? Certainly makes the process easier but not needed. False bottom or basket? Only if you wish to recirc or want to apply heat with the bag in place.

Since I chose to convert from propane burner to "in kettle" electric element...I decided to insert a standard steamer basket into my kettle to hold my bag about an inch off the element. It allows me to use a heat controller to maintain mash temps while I'm away for several hours. I also have a spigot and small pump to recirc while mashing while I'm away at work. I have the basket sides blocked so all the wort flows down thru the grain thus the "dead space" under the bag is all pumped back to the top. The basket also is easier to pull since I just hook the basket handle and hoist. If I pull the bag I can squeeze it like everyone else. If I leave the bag in the basket and pull the basket, I can then sparge the bag while it's inside the basket.

Certainly mine is more than a basic BIAB. It could be much simpler but it works and makes me good beer. It allows me do some things that increases my efficiencies, partially automates some of the process to give some of my time back.

re-read everyone's comments and take a little here and a little there and build "your" system.

 

[agentbud]

I have the basket sides blocked so all the wort flows down thru the grain

How do you block the sides of the basket?

 

[odie]

I used some 12" aluminum roll flashing I had sitting around. Home depot or Lowes. Any lumber yard. It blocks the side holes and all the wort must flow down thru the grain before getting pumped back to the top.

If you have a basket "made" for BIAB it should be solid walls. I just bought a cheap seafood streamer basket that had holes everywhere because it fit perfect and supports my bag.

 

[odie]

 

[Birrofilo]

I use both. My all-in-one kettle has a basket. I wrap a BIAB bag around the basket. The basket makes all the heavy work. The bag keeps the debris away from the recirculation pump and works as a finer sieve than the basket. After grain separation the wort is clearer than without the bag around the basket.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I spent a lot of time planning an eBIAB rig, only to bail on it in the end. The conclusion I came to was that a basket seems cool, but there are some issues with it.

First, as pointed out above, if you have open sides, if you recirculate, some of the water coming it at the top (maybe most/all) will run out the sides instead of flowing all the way through to the bottom. Also, you have additional space around the sides that is wort not in contact with the grains. This can be an issue if space is a concern for high gravity beers.

A bag, however, basically seals itself to the side of the kettle. This means that an recirculation has to go through the grains in the bag. It also eliminates that "wasted" space around the sides of a basket.

Bags are also cheaper and easier to store and efficiency with a squeeze is pretty impressive.

My only issue with bags (and most will say this is not an issue at all), is that you get cloudy wort going into the kettle. This does not mean, in any way, shape or form, that it will affect the ability to brew clear beer. I've brewed crystal clear beer with a bag. I have zero evidence on this, but my switch to a bag coincides with a drop in "sparkle" to my IPAs, so I've been on a mission to have clear wort into the boil kettle. Again, I have zero evidence and I'm not saying that's a goal anyone else should pursue unless they have their own reasons.

I have a basket that I got from Brew Boss on clearance last December, but I have never used it (and probably never will). I thought I wanted it, but (as they say in football) "upon further review", it's not what I want to use.

For the record, I'm just now switching to a 2 vessel K-RIMS rig.

 

[YeasternStar]

I ended up here after doing a web search on BIAB techniques. I have a 3-vessel RIMS with propane main heat and an electric heater in my recirculation system. Pulling a keggle with wet mash off the top of the frame is getting harder every year (even for 5 gallons); so, I'm thinking of changing my strategy to brewing in a bag. Trying to find a pre-made malt basket for a keggle has proven to be fruitless, so I placed an order with Wilserbags to get myself started. I've looked at some of the single-vessel systems and while they may be easier to use than a 3-vessel system, I'm thinking that a bag in my mash tun will make my system just as easy to use but with some added versatility. For instance, I might be able to empty and clean the bag, rinse the mash tun, and do another mash while I'm boiling the first batch.

Until I get a brew or two under my belt I won't know how well this bag will work, but based on the many discussions on HomebrewTalk and elsewhere I expect it to be a success.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Until I get a brew or two under my belt I won't know how well this bag will work, but based on the many discussions on HomebrewTalk and elsewhere I expect it to be a success.

Good luck! For years I had a crude 3-vessel system that required too much moving stuff around (just 1 burner) and ladling sparge water. I was looking to upgrade to a setup that was easier to use with more capacity. A buddy of mine that makes great beers said he moved to BIAB so I figured I would give it a try in my 10 gallon kettle. I am personally very happy with that "upgrade". My beers might not be perfect, but I cannot recognize any flaws that I think could be solved by changes to my mashing equipment.

 

[Broken Crow]

I ended up here after doing a web search on BIAB techniques. I have a 3-vessel RIMS with propane main heat and an electric heater in my recirculation system. Pulling a keggle with wet mash off the top of the frame is getting harder every year (even for 5 gallons); so, I'm thinking of changing my strategy to brewing in a bag. Trying to find a pre-made malt basket for a keggle has proven to be fruitless, so I placed an order with Wilserbags to get myself started. I've looked at some of the single-vessel systems and while they may be easier to use than a 3-vessel system, I'm thinking that a bag in my mash tun will make my system just as easy to use but with some added versatility. For instance, I might be able to empty and clean the bag, rinse the mash tun, and do another mash while I'm boiling the first batch.

Until I get a brew or two under my belt I won't know how well this bag will work, but based on the many discussions on HomebrewTalk and elsewhere I expect it to be a success.

Have you considered rebuilding the keggle-stand to tip forward? I'm currently studying the pros and cons of this myself.

 

[Alan Reginato]

I used to brew with a friend's homemade all-in-one, with electric element, recirculation system and basket. It was nice, but I bought to myself a kettle, a immersion water heater (I googled it, hehehe, doesn't knew exactly how it's called) and a BIAB bag. The clean process went a half of the original time. The mash efficiency went high, nearly 90%, in a 60 min mash. The BIAB bag made possible a finner grind and that makes a big difference. Of course, I made 50 L, standard ABV beers. And my sparge it's only 5 L, just to cool grains enough to hand squeeze. If you want make more beer, a 3V system is your call. Otherwise, a simple BIAB system is good enough.

 

[YeasternStar]

Have you considered rebuilding the keggle-stand to tip forward? I'm currently studying the pros and cons of this myself.

I hadn't thought of that. That sounds like a real possibility! My setup is a Sabco BrewMagic which has a burner under each kettle and a pump that can be routed from HLT to Mash Tun or else routed to recirculate the Mash liquor. As much work as it is cleaning up, I'd still hate to abandon this thing in favor of a single vessel system. A hinged keggle mount could be just the answer. Thanks for that thought.

 

[YeasternStar]

Good luck! For years I had a crude 3-vessel system that required too much moving stuff around (just 1 burner) and ladling sparge water. I was looking to upgrade to a setup that was easier to use with more capacity. A buddy of mine that makes great beers said he moved to BIAB so I figured I would give it a try in my 10 gallon kettle. I am personally very happy with that "upgrade". My beers might not be perfect, but I cannot recognize any flaws that I think could be solved by changes to my mashing equipment.

Yeah, this brewing hobby has taken a lot of twists and turns over the years and it probably isn't done yet. Looking back twenty years ago brewers were modifying plastic picnic coolers to make their own mash tuns and dreaming about a three vessel system made from Sanke kegs. Back then the Sabco BrewMagic was the mark everyone was aiming for. In between then and now some guys experimented with using bags to hold their grist during the mash and before long single vessel systems with grain baskets began to appear. From everything I have read it appears these single vessel systems do a great job and have few downsides. If I hadn't pulled the trigger on my Sabco back in those days I would be looking into a Clawhammer, or maybe even a Speidel; but, my unit may be able to do a credible BIAB mash. However, I've read where people have had problems using a bag in a keggle.

 

[YeasternStar]

I used to brew with a friend's homemade all-in-one, with electric element, recirculation system and basket. It was nice, but I bought to myself a kettle, a immersion water heater (I googled it, hehehe, doesn't knew exactly how it's called) and a BIAB bag. The clean process went a half of the original time. The mash efficiency went high, nearly 90%, in a 60 min mash. The BIAB bag made possible a finner grind and that makes a big difference. Of course, I made 50 L, standard ABV beers. And my sparge it's only 5 L, just to cool grains enough to hand squeeze. If you want make more beer, a 3V system is your call. Otherwise, a simple BIAB system is good enough.

I was looking at bucket heaters on Amazon just this morning. I found one really nice one that is circular and sits flat on the bottom of a bucket, but...one big issue: it has a non-adjustable thermostat and only heats to 110F. Some of the others I looked at specify they cannot be used in metal buckets, so that eliminates them for me. I like the idea of heating the water in my mash vessel while I sleep and then adding grains early in the morning, so I intend to find a bucket heater that will work for those times when I don't need to do a three vessel brew. A single vessel brew-day definitely sounds simpler.

 

[Broken Crow]

Yeah, this brewing hobby has taken a lot of twists and turns over the years and it probably isn't done yet. Looking back twenty years ago brewers were modifying plastic picnic coolers to make their own mash tuns and dreaming about a three vessel system made from Sanke kegs. Back then the Sabco BrewMagic was the mark everyone was aiming for. In between then and now some guys experimented with using bags to hold their grist during the mash and before long single vessel systems with grain baskets began to appear. From everything I have read it appears these single vessel systems do a great job and have few downsides. If I hadn't pulled the trigger on my Sabco back in those days I would be looking into a Clawhammer, or maybe even a Speidel; but, my unit may be able to do a credible BIAB mash. However, I've read where people have had problems using a bag in a keggle.

If you do it, please post pics...like I said, I'm studying it currently and owing to disability it takes me a very long time to do anything so much of my learning to avoid waste comes from the experience of the fine DIY crowd on here.

 

[shoengine]

The only things I don't like about bags are that sometimes they get caught on my thermowell and rip if I don't notice in time, and they change shape as they emerge from the pot so on large grain bills if I don't pull it out fast enough, I'll make a mess down the sides of the pot.

Worth the tradeoffs.

One thing I did that made using bags easier is with cleaning. I used to clean all of the husks and grain out using copious amounts of water. Now after composting my grain I rinse out the wort until the fabric is clear, invert and hang to dry. The small amounts of husk and grain easily come off when dry with a little flicking of the bag.

 

[YeasternStar]

If you do it, please post pics...like I said, I'm studying it currently and owing to disability it takes me a very long time to do anything so much of my learning to avoid waste comes from the experience of the fine DIY crowd on here.

I've been doing a little thinking and reading of late and have come to the conclusion that in order to do BIAB with a propane fired keggle I will need to be able to lift the bag up off the bottom every time I light the burner. I have a pulley system, just no ready place to rig it up at the moment. I will get that accomplished before using a bag. Today I went through a good pre-clean of my Sabco and am just waiting for some supplies to be delivered so I can brew a summer lager. This one will be a traditional brew instead of BIAB, so cleanup will be a little more labor-intensive; but, I can clean the mash tun while the wort is boiling instead of waiting till the end to do it.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I've been doing a little thinking and reading of late and have come to the conclusion that in order to do BIAB with a propane fired keggle I will need to be able to lift the bag up off the bottom every time I light the burner.

Another option is a single infusion mash (no mash out) and never turn on the burner during the mash. That is my basic process. Targeting a 5.5 gal batch with a little less than 8 gallons of mash water, I find that I drop 1-2F during the mash when wrapping my kettle in a sleeping bag. I have done it without insulation and I might drop 4F over 60 minutes. With a larger batch I would expect that to be more stable.

 

[RM-MN]

I've been doing a little thinking and reading of late and have come to the conclusion that in order to do BIAB with a propane fired keggle I will need to be able to lift the bag up off the bottom every time I light the burner.

When I go to turn on the burner I remove the bag completely from the kettle because the mash is over.

Targeting a 5.5 gal batch with a little less than 8 gallons of mash water, I find that I drop 1-2F during the mash when wrapping my kettle in a sleeping bag. I have done it without insulation and I might drop 4F over 60 minutes.

The temperature of the mash only matters while conversion is occuring. When conversion is over you are only extracting color and flavor where the temperature matters little. With BIAB you can mill the grain finer so that conversion can happen quicker. You may still want a 60 minute mash but only because it gives you more time to do other things. I usually only do 30 minutes for my mash, have very high conversion efficiency, and can get on to more important things in my life.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

The temperature of the mash only matters while conversion is occuring. When conversion is over you are only extracting color and flavor where the temperature matters little. With BIAB you can mill the grain finer so that conversion can happen quicker. You may still want a 60 minute mash but only because it gives you more time to do other things. I usually only do 30 minutes for my mash, have very high conversion efficiency, and can get on to more important things in my life.

It is a combination of a few things...

I do usually get my mash going in the morning and then fix coffee and breakfast during the mash (or dinner if I get started after work). Add in pH meter calibration and a reading, and 60 minutes is a time that fits my schedule.

Also, with lower temp mashes, I have seen a little purple coloring in a iodine test at 30 minutes. I don't usually do a test, but now and then I will drop some iodine in my pH sample wort. 30 minutes is probably fine for NA malt at 152F+, but, at least with my system and process, I have seen enough evidence that 30 minutes is too short for something like a German Pils malt at 149F.