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Best temp for protein rest/chill haze?

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gwapogorilla

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My beers are turning out great...except for chill haze. I use whirlfloc, wort chiller, leave the break behind...but I still get chill haze. I don't have the ability to cold crash, and I don't want to add anymore clearing agents due to my OWN purity laws. So, I am thinking of adding a protein rest to my next batch to see if it helps with the haze issue.
Anyone done this? Any advice as to what temp? I have read 122-130* but not sure if I want the lower or upper end of the range.
 

Bsquared

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Are you beers very hoppy? Hops have lots of polyphenols that will give you haze, and because these are flavor components you don't want to completely eliminate them.

There are a couple things that can be going on too, one is if you are not getting a good hot break after you start the boil you will get a hazy beer. It is very important to start the boil quickly and have it be a good strong boil. If you start with a simmer and then increase the boil you will end up not getting the proteins to clump together efficiently and precipitate out as the hot break. Also If you have a whirlpool step and the protein that is coming out of solution gets too broken up it will not fall out of solution as well.

Be careful if you go the protein rest method, the protolysis reactions go very fast, and can result in a lack of proteins necessary for head retention. So try to keep the rest in the 5-10 min range.
 
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gwapogorilla

gwapogorilla

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Are you beers very hoppy? Hops have lots of polyphenols that will give you haze, and because these are flavor components you don't want to completely eliminate them.
Not all of them...no. But all are hazy.
There are a couple things that can be going on too, one is if you are not getting a good hot break after you start the boil you will get a hazy beer. It is very important to start the boil quickly and have it be a good strong boil. If you start with a simmer and then increase the boil you will end up not getting the proteins to clump together efficiently and precipitate out as the hot break. Also If you have a whirlpool step and the protein that is coming out of solution gets too broken up it will not fall out of solution as well.
I have tried boiling the %$*& of the wort...still hazy. Plus, the hop flavor sucks due to the hop material raising in the break foam and depositing on the sides of my kettle. I am now down to getting a hard boil without break material being produced, then reducing the heat so I have a low but steady boil. Flavor is awesome...no change in haze behavior.
Be careful if you go the protein rest method, the protolysis reactions go very fast, and can result in a lack of proteins necessary for head retention. So try to keep the rest in the 5-10 min range.
What temps? Upper 120's?
 

Bsquared

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Really you just want to start with a strong boil until you get your hot break, then throttle it back so you are in the evaporation rate range of 8-10% / hr.

So here is what is in the master brewers association of americas book the practical brewer:

Medium size proteins that can contribute to turbidity are broken down in the tem range of 122-140, at a pH of 4.2-5.3.
Given that these temp ranges are a bell shaped curve of activity you will get optimum activity in the middle of the range.

Here is their Haze action list.
increase adjunct rate
Use vigorous boil with aeration
Use kettle additives (whirlfloc)
Use well modified malts with low soluble nitrogen
Use protein rest
Use low mash pH where tannin levels are less soluble


All the rest of the list covers chilling, filtering and additives.


Hope this helps.
 
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gwapogorilla

gwapogorilla

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Really you just want to start with a strong boil until you get your hot break, then throttle it back so you are in the evaporation rate range of 8-10% / hr.
Doing this....check.
So here is what is in the master brewers association of americas book the practical brewer:

Medium size proteins that can contribute to turbidity are broken down in the tem range of 122-140, at a pH of 4.2-5.3.
Given that these temp ranges are a bell shaped curve of activity you will get optimum activity in the middle of the range.

Here is their Haze action list.
increase adjunct rate(Nah, not big on adjuct grains)
Use vigorous boil with aerationDoing this...check
Use kettle additives (whirlfloc)Doing this...check
Use well modified malts with low soluble nitrogenUsing Rahr 2 row mostly...So, yes...check
Use protein restGonna try this...thank you
Use low mash pH where tannin levels are less soluble No Ph checker yet, no water report...only adding a little ph 5.2 adjuster. Most I can afford at this point.


All the rest of the list covers chilling, filtering and additives.


Hope this helps.helps a bunch..thank you!:rockin:
.
 

StoneHands

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The protein rests I've done, I've done at the upper end of the range, about 130F, for a short duration (10 mins or so). I get clear beers, even with pils malt, but only after lagering.

You say you're using 5.2....from what I've read - don't, especially since you have no baseline on what your water is like.
My suggestions - ditch the 5.2 and follow the water primer here using distilled next time. Distilled is cheap, even if you buy it by the gallon at the grocery store.
 
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I'm using a homemade immersion chiller...50 ft of copper tubing. I can get from boiling to below 80* in 15 minutes or less.
 

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The protein rests I've done, I've done at the upper end of the range, about 130F, for a short duration (10 mins or so). I get clear beers, even with pils malt, but only after lagering.

You say you're using 5.2....from what I've read - don't, especially since you have no baseline on what your water is like.
My suggestions - ditch the 5.2 and follow the water primer here using distilled next time. Distilled is cheap, even if you buy it by the gallon at the grocery store.
This is good advice. I almost never do a protein rest, and when I do I do them at 131-133. But that is very rare, and I haven't noticed that increasing clarity at all.

I'd skip the 5.2 "stabilizer" and either make one batch with all RO water with a teaspoon of calcium chloride, or invest the $26.50 in a water report. With the techniques you are using, you should have clear beer and I'm thinking that a protein rest will not help but correcting mash pH may.
 
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gwapogorilla

gwapogorilla

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I appreciate the input guys, really. But $26.50 for a water report+$7 for shipping+more $$$ for a decent ph tester+A little more for the additives....just too much for a hobby. Since it is a hobby, I have kids to raise and all of the bills that go with it...I have more important things to spend that money on.
A protein rest doesn't cost a thing...just maybe a few extra minutes. I can afford that.
I will try 129* for 10 minutes on my next batch. If it works, GREAT!. If not, meh...it still tastes good.;)
 

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Where are you and where's your water from? There's a chance someone already has enough information about your water for a simple adjustment.
 

StoneHands

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I'd skip the 5.2 "stabilizer" and ... make one batch with all RO water with a teaspoon of calcium chloride, ....
This is the best advice. It's cheap, the 5.2 may or may not be doing anything anyway. I realize a protein rest is practically free, but I think this is your best bet. It'll improve your beer even if it doesn't fully fix the chill haze issue (which I bet it will).

Also, if you're on a public water system (not a well), you should be able to get most or all of the data from your municipality.
 
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gwapogorilla

gwapogorilla

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This is the best advice. It's cheap, the 5.2 may or may not be doing anything anyway. I realize a protein rest is practically free, but I think this is your best bet. It'll improve your beer even if it doesn't fully fix the chill haze issue (which I bet it will).

Also, if you're on a public water system (not a well), you should be able to get most or all of the data from your municipality.

Okay, I'll skip the 5.2 stabilizer. Just what do you mean by R.O. water anyway? I use municipal water, but they have little to NO information on the ion counts. All they could give me was the ph(which is 7.4) and the sodium count...92ppm. That's it. Welcome to small town Iowa.

I'll check the LHBS for ph strips and such. When you check the mash ph, do you need to wait a while before you check it?
 

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I know you said you didn't want to add anything else, but gelatin does wonders. If you cant bring yourself to use gelatin, let the beer cold condition, after you have bottled and carbonated it, for 2-3 weeks. It will clear up.
 

StoneHands

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R.O. water is reverse osmosis water. Distilled water is essentially the same. If you buy it from the grocery store, make sure it says "distilled" and not "drinking" or "spring" or anything else, needs to say "distilled".

I'll add, I'm told the pH strips are essentially useless since they're difficult to read and not consistent. I would save your money on strips, follow the water primer with distilled water, acid malt, calcium chloride, etc. and see where that gets you. For my purposes (like you, still a hobby), the water primer gets me close enough and I get very good results. When I want to take it to the next level, I'll buy a meter and skip the strips.
 

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gwapogorilla said:
I use municipal water, but they have little to NO information on the ion counts. All they could give me was the ph(which is 7.4) and the sodium count...92ppm. That's it. Welcome to small town Iowa.
I don't know this for sure, but the water department probably has a more complete report - try going I'm person and asking for a full report, one that includes secondary mineral analysis. My town's standard water report only includes things that are a safety concern, but they gave me a complete printout with the info I needed when I asked for it. You'll want to know Ca, Mg, Na (which you already have), Cl, SO4 and some form of water hardness (total alkalinity or alkalinity as CaCO3...or something like that...I always forget the details on this one).

Not sure if ALL towns have this info, but yours might. Worth a shot.
 

StoneHands

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Not sure if ALL towns have this info, but yours might. Worth a shot.
All municipal water treatment facilities have to have this information, because they have to test the water by law to make sure it's safe. It may be just a matter of finding the right person to ask.
 

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StoneHands said:
All municipal water treatment facilities have to have this information, because they have to test the water by law to make sure it's safe. It may be just a matter of finding the right person to ask.
That's what I thought, but wasn't certain. Though are all the ions relevant to brewing considered municipal safety concerns?
 

pdxal

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+1 on high hop rates.
Besides what has been mentioned, if your water is low in calcium flocculation might be inhibited, adding a little calcium chloride or gypsum might be worth a shot if there is no other information available or other things don't work.
 
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gwapogorilla

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I don't know this for sure, but the water department probably has a more complete report - try going I'm person and asking for a full report, one that includes secondary mineral analysis. My town's standard water report only includes things that are a safety concern, but they gave me a complete printout with the info I needed when I asked for it. You'll want to know Ca, Mg, Na (which you already have), Cl, SO4 and some form of water hardness (total alkalinity or alkalinity as CaCO3...or something like that...I always forget the details on this one).

Not sure if ALL towns have this info, but yours might. Worth a shot.
I saw the report. It does have radon, lead and stuff of that nature....but as far as what Ward labs looks for, just sodium is all. And they only do it once every 3 years as required by law.
 

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I know you said you didn't want to add anything else, but gelatin does wonders. If you cant bring yourself to use gelatin, let the beer cold condition, after you have bottled and carbonated it, for 2-3 weeks. It will clear up.
+1 What he said! Gelatin is cheap, and works beyond awesome! That is if you have a place to cold crash. 3 days of gelatin and you will have clear beer, a week and it will be like looking through a window.
 

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Okay, I'll skip the 5.2 stabilizer.
I don't want to admit it but sadly 5.2 stabilizer works for me. I've be hitting 83 mash eff for mths now with it, so i thought i would try a batch with out it and hit a 76% eff
 
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gwapogorilla

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Well, I just another of my "high plains Pale ales"(my SVPA clone) without any 5.2 and I also added a protein rest. Rest was at 128* for 20 minutes.
Just with those 2 changes alone, the wort "acted" different.

The boil had a BUNCH of hot break material, I was starting to wonder is it was ever going to subside back into the brew or not. Finally, it did.
Then, as the boil kept on...I could see break material swirling around in my kettle. I had never gotten this before.
I use whirlfloc in my brews, so when I chilled the wort, all of the break went straight to the bottom...which is good.
Now, in my fermentor...I am growing something. Something I can't see yet as the krausen hasn't settled yet. It looks like the trub material all clumped together and is FLOATING rather than sinking.
I have seen pictures like this before, so I am not too concerned.
 

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I know you said you didn't want to add anything else, but gelatin does wonders. If you cant bring yourself to use gelatin, let the beer cold condition, after you have bottled and carbonated it, for 2-3 weeks. It will clear up.
I 2nd this. Gelatin is the answer to all of your problems. Just add to keg and in just a few days, bye bye haze.:ban:
 
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