Belgian Recipe Advice/Critique (Imperial Saison?)

[Mister-Kingdom]

Planing on brewing up my first mini mash Belgian beer soon. Looking for some advice on my recipe.

50.5% - 3 lbs Belgian Pilsner Malt (Grain)
22.9% - 6.6 lbs (2 Cans of Munton's Light LME)
7.60% - 1 lb light DME
3.80% - 8 oz Flaked Wheat
15.3% - 2 lbs Belgian Candi Sugar ( I will be adding this towards end of primary fermentation to avoid over stressing yeast.)

Boil 60 mins 1.5 oz Styrian Goldings
Boil 5 mins 0.5 oz Czech Saaz
Boil 5 mins 1.0 oz Dried Ginger root
Boil 5 mins 1.0 oz Dried Bitter Orange peel

Yeast: WLP550 or WLP566?

Brewers Friend Calculates this to: OG of 1.081, FG 1.016, Abv 8.50 IBU 21. at 80% Attenuation.

I am aiming for something similar to Ommegang's Hennepin, They call it a Saison yet they use Abbey yeast. I also know they use Coriander and Grains of Paradise but I'm not sure how much of them to use.

Any help/Critiquing would be greatly appreciated.

 

[madscientist451]

There are several clone recipes available for the Hennepin, your recipe looks like a combination of several that are out there.
If you are going to use Pilsner malt, why not skip the extract and just do all grain?
You can use whatever yeast you want to and call it a Saison, but traditional Saison was low alcohol and made from local available ingredients.
Brewing a Hennepin type beer is a good opportunity to try a step mash.
Just start out with a fairly thick mash, like 1 or 1.25 qt/lb and stir in boiling water to raise your mash temps. Use a step mash calculator to figure how much boiling water to add.
Here's a Hennepin clone recipe that gives amounts of coriander and grains of paradise:

http://www.beertools.com/library/recipe.php?view=9293

 

[Mister-Kingdom]

Thanks for the reply. Yes my Recipe is a combo of some other Hennepin recipes I've seen, and simplified a bit for the ingredients that I already have. I'm not to worried about this beer being a perfect clone either as long as its a nice beer. Hennepin really was just an inspiration (My Favorite Belgian beer so far)

I would do all grain I just don't feel I have the necessary equipment just yet, though I'm working on it. Also my boiling pot has about a max boil of 4 gallons and that's pushing the limits. With my limitations I just feel more comfortable with partial mash.

And Thanks for the info on Saisons. I think I will use the Abbey yeast WLP550 then. Since this is a high ABV beer would it be correct to call it an "Imperial Saison" is there such a thing?

 

[Mister-Kingdom]

Do you think that a whole ounce of ginger is too much?

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I wish I had more experience on the ginger department to be able to give advice, my mind would tell me that's not a lot, but it really depends on when you add it. One thing to keep in mind is, its much easier to add more in than take any out. You could say do one of two things. Cut the addition in half, then put half in a mason jar with an ounce or two of decent vodka/moonshine (enough to cover the dried ginger and to keep it covered once it re-hydrates). The stuff you saved you can keep in the jar until bottling day and taste the beer, "oh that's good enough on the ginger department I think since its a big punch in the mouth and will mellow in a couple months" or you say "that's not nearly enough ginger punch for me, I'll dose some of this ginger extract and mix it in with the priming sugar (if you are bottling)". You don't have to get all scientific with it, just have your sense of smell and taste be your guide. You can do the same thing with orange peel, grains of paradise, and the coriander. Word of warning find some really good quality coriander on the internet somewhere, buy cheap stuff and you are asking for your beer to taste like soap.

Since you can make "Imperial" anything, you can definitely make it and call it an imperial saison. If you are going to enter it into competition I would make sure that the beer represents some of the major components of a saison (dry crisp mouthfeel and spicy/peppery phenols). There wouldn't be an "imperial saison" category in the standard categories, you would probably wanna enter it in the Belgian Specialty category then declare the base style as a saison and you made it an imperial saison. Theres also the clone beer category you could declare it as a Hennepin clone (if you think its close enough in character). This is all if you are entering it in competition, otherwise, you can call it whatever you want.

 

[m00ps]

Definitely use WLP566 over 550. I am biased toward saison strains, but specifically for a saison, WLP566 will me MUCH better suited. Its got a good balance of hefe-like spices and saison rustic flavors IME.

If you are trying to do a hennepin beer, youd also need grains of paradise. Ive used 2-4g crushed with good results

Question, is the 1 oz dried ginger in sliced form? Or like powder? If its powder, I think that would be way too much

 

[Mister-Kingdom]

@ArkotRamathorn
It looks like dried slices and chunks of ginger. Not powder. I wouldn't mind using fresh ginger but don't know much to use of that either. Would I get a better ginger flavor using fresh or does it matter?

@m00ps
Thanks for your opinion on the WLP566 I will use that yeast. I am also going to add 2 grams of Grains of Paradise to my recipe. Also some coriander, just haven't decide how much of that to add yet.

Excuse my inexperience this is my first time brewing with any spices.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Fresh ginger would have a much bigger punch compared to dried versions. If you already have dried its not a big deal and theres no reason to go to the store to spend more money (if you want though, I always like using fresh spices, particularly when it comes to ginger). How you prepare the ginger is important as well, leave it in big chunks and you don't get as much heat off it, cut it up super small and you'll create ginger-inferno.

I would still go with the, cut the boil addition in half and then create an extract with a strong spirit like vodka/moonshine and saving it for bottling day. I personally like Ginger-Doom where it blows my brains out with ginger fire, but, not everyone likes that sort of stuff. It's good to, particularly with beer, to take the side of caution and dial up the ginger on bottling/kegging day. I like Hennepin and it definitely has an assertive spice character but the ginger doesn't dominate.

You could create a separate extract of each spice so you can dial the beer in on bottling day. Have some in the boil since that will create a certain character, then bump up whatever you think is missing on bottling day (have a Hennepin opened and poured to do side by sides).

This thread definitely is making me want to brew an imperial red rye saison and trying to see how far I can push Belle Saison yeast a fairly decent amount of crystal malt.

 

[Mister-Kingdom]

I haven't bought any of my spices yet so I'm good there. I will use fresh ginger and make a ginger extract and a coriander extract. adding a smaller amount to boil and saving extract for later additions if needed, like you suggested. I also personally love the burning spiciness of ginger but I want this beer to be nice and balanced in its spiciness.

I have a week or two before I brew this beer up. So I'm going to take some time do some extract research and write up a new recipe.

This is off topic but in the meantime you mentioned a rye saison. I've never brewed with rye and only had a few rye beers. So how does rye affect a brew or should I say what does it add in terms of flavor and so on? I'm not a huge fan of rye bread but very interested in trying new things and flavors (especially in beer).

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

This is off topic but in the meantime you mentioned a rye saison. I've never brewed with rye and only had a few rye beers. So how does rye affect a brew or should I say what does it add in terms of flavor and so on? I'm not a huge fan of rye bread but very interested in trying new things and flavors (especially in beer).

Your recipe is just fine as is so in general you don't need to change your malt/hop bill.

Unfortunately I am rather insensitive to rye flavor/aroma so I have a really hard time picking it out. To me it adds a distinct "beer" flavor, which I know is a horrible way to describe it since it doesn't really touch on what it does. Traditionally its known for a distinct earthy spice character and has the most robust flavor of all the major brewing grains. Most rye bread has other spices added like caraway so you probably dislike caraway more than rye.

Other than its robust flavor, treat it exactly like wheat. It is huskless so itll make a sticky mash, I did a roggenbier with 60% rye and it was the worst stuck mash I've ever experienced (even though I BIAB). It adds a lot of body and head retention, I am not joking when I say it adds body, the 60% rye roggenbier pours like oil and its only a 4% beer.

 

[madscientist451]

I haven't bought any of my spices yet so I'm good there. I will use fresh ginger and make a ginger extract and a coriander extract.



This is off topic but in the meantime you mentioned a rye saison. I've never brewed with rye and only had a few rye beers. So how does rye affect a brew or should I say what does it add in terms of flavor and so on? I'm not a huge fan of rye bread but very interested in trying new things and flavors (especially in beer).

Coriander is usually just put in the boil, I don't know if cooking in the boil produces a different flavor compared making a tincture with vodka, but I'd guess it probably does. The ginger, however may produce a better flavor by night be added to the boil. It will take some trial and error to get the flavor that suits your taste.
The recipe link I provided above says that for 5 gallons, 0.3 oz Ginger Root, 0.3 oz Coriander and 0.03oz Grains of Paradise was added with 15 min left in the boil.

I made a Rye Saison last year with my own recipe, using White Labs American Saison yeast. When it was done, I thought it was a failure; I just didn't like it at all, too much rye flavor and bitterness, not much in the way of Saison yeast notes. So I let it sit and kept coming back to it. So now, a year later, I'm on my last bottle and I really like the beer and will do a re-brew. I suppose aging in the bottle rounded off the rye and hop intensity and let the Saison yeast flavors develop a little more. Let me know if you're interested, I'll put my recipe in.

 

[Mister-Kingdom]

Interesting I guess I'll have to buy myself a couple Roggenbiers to try. Do you know of any brands that I should keep my eye out for? I love wheat-beers so if it's like a more robust version of those then I must try some.

And sure I'd like to see the recipe but only if its no trouble for you. I always enjoy looking over recipes as part of my learning process.