Belgian Quintuple Recipe Critique

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loveofrose

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I know a Belgian Quintuple doesn't officially exist, but this is what I envision it would be like. I would especially appreciate any critique on the specialty grains to get me to the flavor profile I'm looking for.

I am going for strong malt backbone perfectly balanced with hops aroma and bitterness. Just enough bitterness to balance the malt and not one iota more. A bit of caramel sweetness with a hint of rye spice with a nice honey nose to pull it all together.

My logic for light color is as follows: Dubbels are dark; Trippels are light; Quads are dark. I imagine a quintuple to be light again.

Thanks for any advice in advanced !

Belgian Quintuple
5 gallons - Partial Mash
1.114OG → 1.020FG
12.3%ABV
40 IBU (Balance 0.88)
7.4°L SRM

Specialty Grains
8 oz Crystal 20L
8 oz Rye
4 oz Aromatic
4 oz Special Roast
-Mash at 150 F for 30 minutes; Sparge and discard.

Fermentables
12 pounds Pilsen LME
3 pounds Honey (at flameout)
-Boil for 1 hour with the following hop schedule.

Hops
Sterling hops - 1 ounce at 60 min.
Fuggles hops - 1 ounce at 30 min.
Sterling hops - 1 ounce at 30 min.
Whirlfloc Tablet - 15 minutes
Wort Chiller - 15 minutes
Fuggles hops - 1 ounce at 10 min.
Fuggles hops- 2 ounces at Flameout
Sterling hops - 1 ounce at Flameout

Yeast
Wyeast 1388 - 2 liter starter

Ferment to FG of 1.02.
Use prime dose for carbonation.




Better brewing through science!
 
I like the idea.

I noted you mentioning light to dark and that your thought would be for the quint to be light colored. I can agree with that thought process...although I might spell it as Quintupel.

Since there is already a Golden Strong that is lighter bodied that's crisper and dryer than a Tripel, what grist would you use to differentiate the Quint from the Golden Strong? Possibly more Belgian Wheat?

I like the idea of using honey instead of candi sugar to increase the alcohol content.

I would stay away from the hops you're wanting to use. I would use only Nobel hops...and just enough for them to be barely perceptible.

One of my understandings about Belgians is that it's not about showcasing the hops or the grains....it's all about the yeast. So one more thought might be to use WLP650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis for a secondary fermentation.

I think that would put it over the top....in fact...after re-reading these ideas of mine, I might have to brew an all-grain batch of this myself. That's one of the coolest things about homebrewing....we can create our own styles.
 
I think I like your spelling better. I'll definitely use that. The distinguishing thing about this beer is balance and showcasing of the malt without being too sweet or over hopped. The honey is a nice distinguishing feature as well. The 12.5% ABV is also unusual and gives it substance in the name Quintupel.

The hops are essential to my flavor profile. I know these well and they give the aroma I'm going for. Not that I think Noble hops would be bad; Just not what I've got in my head right now.

I chose Wyeast 1388 because it is very clean. This beer is big enough that I think a more funky yeast may go a bit over the top and hide the malt. This wort will stress even the cleanest yeast and likely yield a very interesting character. However, if you dig the funk, funk on my friend!

I like the idea.



I noted you mentioning light to dark and that your thought would be for the quint to be light colored. I can agree with that thought process...although I might spell it as Quintupel.



Since there is already a Golden Strong that is lighter bodied that's crisper and dryer than a Tripel, what grist would you use to differentiate the Quint from the Golden Strong? Possibly more Belgian Wheat?



I like the idea of using honey instead of candi sugar to increase the alcohol content.



I would stay away from the hops you're wanting to use. I would use only Nobel hops...and just enough for them to be barely perceptible.



One of my understandings about Belgians is that it's not about showcasing the hops or the grains....it's all about the yeast. So one more thought might be to use WLP650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis for a secondary fermentation.



I think that would put it over the top....in fact...after re-reading these ideas of mine, I might have to brew an all-grain batch of this myself. That's one of the coolest things about homebrewing....we can create our own styles.





Better brewing through science!
 
I agree that it is a cool idea but this baby is going to be a challenge to ferment all the way down (especially with extract). The key is definitely going to be to dry the beer out so it doesn't taste like syrup. I would get 15-20% of my fermentables from honey (or another simple sugar) and use some of them to feed the fermentation after it has already gotten underway--perhaps add 50% of the honey at flameout and the other 50% at high krausen. I would also use more yeast and aerate the crap out of your wort. Mr. malty suggests a 2L starter from 2 packs of yeast (or you could always step up one pack then do a starter from that).

At a glance I'm also not sure if you're really going to get all that much from your grains, especially the rye, since they are such a small % of the grain bill. I wouldn't go too extreme with them since you still want the yeast to shine through and don't want to muddle the beer but you could probably increase some of these up to double if you want.

Finally, I agree with old_tx_kbb in hop selection. I would just use saaz but that is personal preference.

Most of these suggestions will go for any big belgian but the grains will definitely vary based on what exactly you are shooting for. I am kind of envisioning a dark strong without the Special B and dark caramel malt. Look forward to hearing how it turns out :mug:
 
I think I like your spelling better. I'll definitely use that. The distinguishing thing about this beer is balance and showcasing of the malt without being too sweet or over hopped. The honey is a nice distinguishing feature as well. The 12.5% ABV is also unusual and gives it substance in the name Quintupel.

The hops are essential to my flavor profile. I know these well and they give the aroma I'm going for. Not that I think Noble hops would be bad; Just not what I've got in my head right now.

I chose Wyeast 1388 because it is very clean. This beer is big enough that I think a more funky yeast may go a bit over the top and hide the malt. This wort will stress even the cleanest yeast and likely yield a very interesting character. However, if you dig the funk, funk on my friend!



Better brewing through science!

Based on what you just posted while I was replying it sounds like you might be shooting for something closer to an english barleywine than a belgian. This obviously isn't a bad thing but it may impact your choice of yeast. If you aren't really looking for the complexity that the belgian yeast may add then maybe a US-05 or similar yeast would be a good choice?
 
I like the idea and the suggestions you've gotten. I second cutting back on the hops, focusing on the bittering addition and one flavor addition, maybe using the same gravity to ibu ratio as a tripel. I find sterling to be a passable substitute for saaz, especially since you won't be using much of it.

I also think you're missing the boat on the yeast. It doesn't have to be funky, but it does need to have those Belgian esthers. Maybe WLP 530 - Abbey Ale?
 
Brew what you like....I'll say it again though....

Belgians are not about the hops or the malt....the emphasis and what needs to be showcased is the yeast....

IMHO for any Belgian you don't want a clean yeast to showcase your malt and hops

Brew on brother and enjoy!
 
Consider me subscribed... Ill be following the discussion and just from the few posts already up there is a strong chance I'll brew up something because of it! :mug: for the OP!
 
First of all, thanks for all of the input and discussion here. I had no idea this would generate so much discussion. I will try to address all comments made in no particular order.

I think I was a bit unclear about my "clean" yeast. Wyeast 1388 is a Belgian yeast originally isolated from Moorgat brewery of Duvel fame. As such, it does indeed have an ester profile, especially if brewed at high temperatures (which it will be). This is my house yeast due to the fact that it makes excellent beer and mead (see Bray's One Month Mead post in the mead section). I only meant that I don't want to take it to the Brett level of funk! I have no problems routinely hitting 15% ABV with this yeast so I'm not concerned about hitting my FG. After learning how to ferment mead fast, beer is easy. I will however add the honey at a later point in fermentation. This is commonly done in mead for the same reasons.

Keep in mind that balancing hops depends largely on how much malt is in the beer and FG. A 5% beer FG 1.004 with 40 IBU is really hoppy while a 12.5% beer FG 1.02 with 40 IBU may still be a bit sweet. I've calculated the hops to balance the intense amount of malt in this beer. Any less would indeed be cloyingly sweet. If anything, it may need a touch more bittering hops for balance. I really like complexity and balance in my hop profile hence the multiple additions. Any fool can throw in 2 lbs of hops and make an IPA, but a brew master puts everything into harmonic balance.

I think I will tweak the specialty grains a bit. More rye, less caramel. I think there is enough malt here that I won't need to try hard to taste it.

There seems to be some opinion that Belgian beers are all about the yeast esters. An opinion that I used to share. After reading "Brew like a Monk", I don't think this way anymore. For me, a Belgian beer is about deciding what I want the beer to taste like before I make the recipe. I then tweak the recipe to fit the characteristics I want. Yeast is certainly part of that though. If this were a Quad, I would be all about the funk in my yeast. For low SRM commercial Belgians such as golden strong ales, the yeast esters are there, but subdued quite a bit by comparison (Duvel, St Sebastiaan, etc.) The non-yeast ingredients really do shine through here. As a result, technique must be spot on to avoid any flaws. This is the precision brewing I enjoy and would like to apply to the Quintupel.

I respect that other brewers have different opinions so please take my comments as my opinions and not any kind of attack on your ideas. I really enjoy the exchange of ideas on the boards and welcome all opinions. That's how we learn new things!

Cheers!



Better brewing through science!
 
Very ambitious for an extract brew!

Are you planning to split the LME addition, like 1/3 in the boil, then 2/3 at flameout (or at 10')?
If you boil that whole 12# you may get problems with over-caramelization or worse, scorching. I doubt it would finish at 1.020 even with the split LME addition; LME (or DME) recipes tend to be less fermentable than All Grain mashed low.

Keeping your fermentation temps well regulated will help to prevent it getting stuck at 1.038 or so. There's a recent thread about a Quadrupel that stalled there. Being able to ramp it up a bit right after the high krausen is done ensures to keep the yeast interested.
 
Thanks for the heads up, but I routinely use 12 lbs+ for my brews with none of the problems you've mentioned. I figure if I'm going to make a beer, then it better be big! I have good equipment and I'm a religious stirrer so perhaps that helps. I also pitch ridiculous starters (3 day old 2 liter starters) so the yeast count is really high.

The last Scottish ale I did was 12 lbs LME + specialty grains that clocked in at SG 1.111. I hit 1.012 in 4 days after pitching!


Better brewing through science!
 
A note about color...there is/was a light colored dubbel that Westvleteren used to brew, but they don't any longer. Interesting to note. Sadly I can't seem to find my picture of it, but Thijs has it covered already here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bethmasoch/5411692102/

I think that the enkel/dubbel/tripel/quadruple terminology pertains more to the wort strength than the color. Mind you I have yet to see a dark colored tripel. ;)

That said, I think you have a good idea here. If you wanted a drier finish than 1.020 you could consider using a yeast with a very high attentuation and good tolerance to alcohol strength to set up your ester profile, ferment until it slows considerably and then pitch champagne yeast to dry it out more.
 
I've done a few Belgians with Sterling hops and they are great with Belgian yeasts. I'm not a huge fan of the Fuggles though. I'd probably go with Styrian Goldings, myself.

Definitely don't do noble hops. English style hops are much more to style, unless you want to find some aged hops that would only provide bittering and no flavor. But you seem to be looking for some hop flavor.

One thing I would suggest is to skip the late hop additions. Just wait for it to ferment out and condition a bit. Then you can do a big dry hop. Otherwise, you'd be drinking a green beer with hop character or a mature beer with all the hop character already faded.
 
I've done a few Belgians with Sterling hops and they are great with Belgian yeasts. I'm not a huge fan of the Fuggles though. I'd probably go with Styrian Goldings, myself.

Definitely don't do noble hops. English style hops are much more to style, unless you want to find some aged hops that would only provide bittering and no flavor. But you seem to be looking for some hop flavor.

One thing I would suggest is to skip the late hop additions. Just wait for it to ferment out and condition a bit. Then you can do a big dry hop. Otherwise, you'd be drinking a green beer with hop character or a mature beer with all the hop character already faded.


In my hands, 1388 beverages are ready faster than most. As a result, I often drink some young and some aged which is like drinking two different, but very tasty, beers. I don't know if this will be like that, but I'll give it a shot!

Still, I like your dry hop idea and the simplification of the hop schedule. For round 1, I may try the hop schedule I have and post any necessary adjustments. I am more worried about the specialty grains in this recipe fighting too much.


Better brewing through science!
 
I know a Belgian Quintuple doesn't officially exist, but this is what I envision it would be like. I would especially appreciate any critique on the specialty grains to get me to the flavor profile I'm looking for.

I am going for strong malt backbone perfectly balanced with hops aroma and bitterness. Just enough bitterness to balance the malt and not one iota more. A bit of caramel sweetness with a hint of rye spice with a nice honey nose to pull it all together.

My logic for light color is as follows: Dubbels are dark; Trippels are light; Quads are dark. I imagine a quintuple to be light again.

Thanks for any advice in advanced !

Belgian Quintuple
5 gallons - Partial Mash
1.114OG → 1.020FG
12.3%ABV
40 IBU (Balance 0.88)
7.4°L SRM

Specialty Grains
8 oz Crystal 20L
8 oz Rye
4 oz Aromatic
4 oz Special Roast
-Mash at 150 F for 30 minutes; Sparge and discard.

Fermentables
12 pounds Pilsen LME
3 pounds Honey (at flameout)
-Boil for 1 hour with the following hop schedule.

Hops
Sterling hops - 1 ounce at 60 min.
Fuggles hops - 1 ounce at 30 min.
Sterling hops - 1 ounce at 30 min.
Whirlfloc Tablet - 15 minutes
Wort Chiller - 15 minutes
Fuggles hops - 1 ounce at 10 min.
Fuggles hops- 2 ounces at Flameout
Sterling hops - 1 ounce at Flameout

Yeast
Wyeast 1388 - 2 liter starter

Ferment to FG of 1.02.
Use prime dose for carbonation.




Better brewing through science!


Rye, C20, Aromatic, and Special Roast will not mash, you need some base malt in there to do so. They will add flavor, and starch, but not much sugar.
FG of 1.020 might be ambitious, but I hope you can reach it.
Not a big fan of a lot of flavor hops in Belgians, but it is your beer.
Good luck!
 
Thanks all for your input. I ordered the material yesterday. Let's do this!


Better brewing through science!
 
Kind of forgot to update this thread. So here is what happened...

This beer/Braggot finished at 1.02 (13.6%!). I say Braggot because the Orange Blossom honey came through a lot more than I thought it would. Not a bad thing to mead maker though!

Bottled and carbonated with 5 tablets of Prime Dose per liter.

I named it after the theoretical star the supposedly orbits our sun and causes mass extinction events.

Labels:
ImageUploadedByHome Brew1412980589.895771.jpg

At Month 5, these are my notes:

This beer/Braggot is absolutely wonderful. You taste no alcohol and it is surprisingly light. Five sips later, you have a buzz.

It is wonderfully effervescent. The orange blossom honey and malt are equally intense. Perfect balance of hop bitterness and sweetness.

This recipe is a keeper!




Better brewing through science!
 
I know a Belgian Quintuple doesn't officially exist, but this is what I envision it would be like. I would especially appreciate any critique on the specialty grains to get me to the flavor profile I'm looking for.

I am going for strong malt backbone perfectly balanced with hops aroma and bitterness. Just enough bitterness to balance the malt and not one iota more. A bit of caramel sweetness with a hint of rye spice with a nice honey nose to pull it all together.

My logic for light color is as follows: Dubbels are dark; Trippels are light; Quads are dark. I imagine a quintuple to be light again.

Thanks for any advice in advanced !

Belgian Quintuple
5 gallons - Partial Mash
1.114OG → 1.020FG
12.3%ABV
40 IBU (Balance 0.88)
7.4°L SRM

Specialty Grains
8 oz Crystal 20L
8 oz Rye
4 oz Aromatic
4 oz Special Roast
-Mash at 150 F for 30 minutes; Sparge and discard.

Fermentables
12 pounds Pilsen LME
3 pounds Honey (at flameout)
-Boil for 1 hour with the following hop schedule.

Hops
Sterling hops - 1 ounce at 60 min.
Fuggles hops - 1 ounce at 30 min.
Sterling hops - 1 ounce at 30 min.
Whirlfloc Tablet - 15 minutes
Wort Chiller - 15 minutes
Fuggles hops - 1 ounce at 10 min.
Fuggles hops- 2 ounces at Flameout
Sterling hops - 1 ounce at Flameout

Yeast
Wyeast 1388 - 2 liter starter

Ferment to FG of 1.02.
Use prime dose for carbonation.




Better brewing through science!
Have you tried Hoppin'n Frog's Pentupple? I think this is the beer you are trying to brew. I'd try one or several and see if you can nail down what they've got going on.
If so, contact the brewery and ask for tips or advice.
Most brewers are willing to lend a hand to homebrewers.
I'm going to attempt a replication myself.
I brew big beers.
 
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