Beginner's Q #4: Second Fermenter - Why, How and Advice

[Elijah]

My First beer had been brewing for two weeks now.

SG: 1.061
FG1: 1.01(+) (August 15th 2013)
FG2: 1.01 (August 18th 2013)
Average Temperature was 27c (Yes, hot, that's how it is here!)
Yeast T-50

I took two readings with almost 0.005(-) change (I think it's a temperature issue - almost impossible to see) - beer is clearing and it tastes addictively good even when flat.

I want to bottle my beer this weekend but after considering my options I think I might need to save some in a second fermenter for a while before bottling due to space constrains.

I am considering to use a 10 liter (2.5 gal) plastic carboy which was used for spring-water. The rest 10L is going to be bottled in 20 x 0.5L bottles.

The questions are as follows:
1- Do I need to add yeast to second fermenter or would the already active yeast from the first fermenter be enough?
2- Would I need an airlock for the second fermenter since - afterall fermentation almost stopped and maybe I would need to release gas every now and then ... ?
3- Would my beer benefit from secondary fermentation if done as described, or would it be merely an act of necessity?

Thank you,

 

[twistr25]

When do you plan on bottling the rest? It'll be easier and better if you can wait until you can bottle all of it. What is your space constraint, no room to store the bottles?

 

[Queequeg]

My answer to 1)

It depends on the yeast, how much unfermentated sugar is in the beer and how long you are keeping it. Commonly people prime with no additional yeast after about 3 weeks, through which the yeast population declines but is still sufficent to restart when primed.

If its longer you and you have your doubts as to if the yeast is still viable you could always take a sample and add some DLME and see if you get bubbles after 24-48 hours, like you would when making a starter.

Otherwise you will have to add more yeast and some nutrients, which I have never done and don't know much about.

My answer to 2)

Yes, because moving to secondary churns up C02 from solution which will need to be expelled. You want an airlock to let this C02 push out the air in the head space keeping your brew anaerobic/microaerophilic. The airlock with gentley bubble for about half a day after you move it accross, after that no activity.

My answer to 3)

My IPA is currently in its 2nd fermenter right now and I have to say that quite a bit of sediment has parcipiated from suspension. I expected it from day one as it was slightly cloudy from were the yeast cake kicked a little, but its day 4 now and the layer on the bottom of the carboy has got significantly more thick despite the beer appearing fairly clear after day 1.

So from my limited experience 2nd fermenation does seem to assist clarity quite a bit at the very least. Then people claim that it helps remove chemical biproducts from primary fermentation thus improving flavour, although this is disputed.

Since your beer is 2 weeks old already, I should think it will need to be moved off the yeast cake to limit autolysis which can start in week 3. So if you want to store some longer then yes I would think you need to move it to secondary or rack to bottle to stop off flavours.

If you don't have the bottles, I would move it all to secondary, leave it a week or so and then bottle what I can. That way you get the benifits of some secondary time for you whole batch.

I would not use a water carboy, I have heard that they are not made to withstand exposure to alcohol or the acids in beer and consequently corrode.
Get a dedicated beer container, unless the bottle states its made form PET, in which case you should be good to go.

 

[twistr25]

My answer to 1)

It depends on the yeast, how much unfermentated sugar is in the beer and how long you are keeping it. Commonly people prime with no additional yeast after about 3 weeks, through which the yeast population declines but is still sufficent to restart when primed.

If its longer you and you have your doubts as to if the yeast is still viable you could always take a sample and add some DLME and see if you get bubbles after 24-48 hours, like you would when making a starter.

Otherwise you will have to add more yeast and some nutrients, which I have never done and don't know much about.

My answer to 2)

Yes, because moving to secondary churns up C02 from solution which will need to be expelled. You want an airlock to let this C02 push out the air in the head space keeping your brew anaerobic/microaerophilic. The airlock with gentley bubble for about half a day after you move it accross, after that no activity.

My answer to 3)

My IPA is currently in its 2nd fermenter right now and I have to say that quite a bit of sediment has parcipiated from suspension. I expected it from day one as it was slightly cloudy from were the yeast cake kicked a little, but its day 4 now and the layer on the bottom of the carboy has got significantly more thick despite the beer appearing fairly clear after day 1.

So from my limited experience 2nd fermenation does seem to assist clarity quite a bit at the very least. Then people claim that it helps remove chemical biproducts from primary fermentation thus improving flavour, although this is disputed.

Since your beer is 2 weeks old already, I should think it will need to be moved off the yeast cake to limit autolysis which can start in week 3. So if you want to store some longer then yes I would think you need to move it to secondary or rack to bottle to stop off flavours.

If you don't have the bottles, I would move it all to secondary, leave it a week or so and then bottle what I can. That way you get the benifits of some secondary time for you whole batch.

I would not use a water carboy, I have heard that they are not made to withstand exposure to alcohol or the acids in beer and consequently corrode.
Get a dedicated beer container, unless the bottle states its made form PET, in which case you should be good to go.

Way false. This has been determined to not be an issue any more with advances in yeast science. Commercial breweries it is more of a concern because of the sheer weight on the yeast cake can cause issues, but at the homebrew level, not a big deal.

Secondary is a straight preference. I've dry hopped in primary before. Haven't had fruit additions yet, and I may move to secondary for that, but otherwise not necessary, but if you want to by all means. However, if you were doing a half and half kind of thing, I'd still say let it ride until you are ready to do the whole thing.

 

[Elijah]

Queequeg & twistr25

Thank you kindly for taking the time to answer my questions.

When do you plan on bottling the rest? It'll be easier and better if you can wait until you can bottle all of it. What is your space constraint, no room to store the bottles?

My space constraint has to do with space for 40 bottles & I am short in bottles and have only larger containers (5 liter jugs) which according to xp from other members on this forum may prove to be not suitable for bottling. My initial plan was to have my ~20li batch in 20 bottles and two 5 lit jugs.
Duration in secondary, 2 weeks or so.

 

[aiptasia]

Autolysis isn't a concern for small batch brewing. I've left beers on the yeast cake in primary for upwards of four months or more with no ill effects. It is more of an issue with commercial brewing that involve big conical fermenters and crushing pressures on the yeast and trub in them, but not for homebrew.

I'm an advocate for only using a secondary if there is a specific reason to use a secondary. The risk of infection in the finished beer outweighs my need for a secondary in 95% of my brews and leaving the beer an extra week or so in the primary is beneficial for the taste of the beer. Early during the reproductive phases of fermentation and early krausen, the yeasts consume a lot of sugars and produce some early precursors to alcohol. You'll find such off flavors as acetylaldehyde (green apple), fusel alcohol ("hot" alcoholic taste) and diacetyl (butterscotch) being produced early on during this phase.

If you leave your yeast on the yeast cake, in the primary, for an extra week after the primary fermentation is complete and the yeast have no more fermentable sugar to eat, the yeast will go back and consume those early alcohols and turn them into much more pleasant and tasty esters and phenols. I always give my beer one extra week (called a diacetyl rest) at room temperature after the primary fermentation is done to allow the yeast to clean itself up.

I only use a secondary if i'm adding some sort of funky adjunct to the beer and for some odd reason, couldn't do it in the primary. Almost everything I add to my beers goes into the primary. The risk of infection and possible oxidation is too great for me to use a secondary. My beers are perfectly clear so I don't need to use a secondary as a brite tank, and they taste great.

 

[twistr25]

Queequeg & twistr25

Thank you kindly for taking the time to answer my questions.

My space constraint has to do with space for 40 bottles & I am short in bottles and have only larger containers (5 liter jugs) which according to xp from other members on this forum may prove to be not suitable for bottling. My initial plan was to have my ~20li batch in 20 bottles and two 5 lit jugs.
Duration in secondary, 2 weeks or so.

So, it typically takes 3 weeks for your bottles to carb and condition. So after another 2 weeks, how will you have space for these other bottles?

 

[Queequeg]

Ok thanks for the info on autolysis. The only reason I was cautious of this is firstly reading about in on homebrew sites and secondly I worked in a mircobiology lab for 11 years and we could get autolysis on subcultures of 100ml in a relatively short space of time. So we had a limited time frame for working with subcultures. I suppose our tolerances were lower though.

Edit: In fact I tell a lie, you would actually get autolysis in samples as small as 0.2ml, with a variety of substrates. I suspect you probably are getting autolysis throughout the brew, even in secodnary, just not enough that you can actually taste it.

I am dry hopping my IPA so I moved it to secondary as supposedly the high clarity aids hop utilization, though I suspect that is myth to.

 

[kombat]

Wow! A lot of misinformation in this thread!

add some DLME and see if you get bubbles after 24-48 hours. Otherwise you will have to add more yeast and some nutrients

You will almost never have to add more yeast prior to bottling. The only time this might be needed is if the beer has been sitting for a long time (months/years, not weeks) and is high-gravity. If it is high gravity, you might need to add new yeast (high-gravity yeast, e.g., champagne yeast) even if it's quite young, as regular brewing yeast will give up as the ABV gets high.

So from my limited experience 2nd fermenation does seem to assist clarity quite a bit at the very least.

Racking beer to a second fermenter is detrimental to clarity. The idea that it helps clarity is a myth. Think about it: You've got beer sitting in your primary fermenter, and sediment is slowly falling out of solution. The top portion of the beer will be measurably clearer than the lower portion, as the particles sink to the bottom. If you rack that beer to another vessel, then all of those particles still in suspension are uniformly redistributed, and have to start falling all the way from the top again.

The presence of a yeast cake at the bottom of a fermenter is completely irrelevant with respect to the ability of the beer to clear.

Then people claim that it helps remove chemical biproducts from primary fermentation thus improving flavour, although this is disputed.

Actually, those byproducts are consumed/processed by the yeast, so if anything, the beer will clean up better if you leave it on the yeast.

Since your beer is 2 weeks old already, I should think it will need to be moved off the yeast cake to limit autolysis which can start in week 3.

Totally false. Autolysis is not a concern at the home brewing scale. Our smaller fermenters exert far less pressure on the yeast, and they will not begin starving to death for several months. Even then, the remaining yeast will at least partially consume the dead ones.

All that said, the one thing that jumped out at me was your 80° F ambient temperatures. That is far, far too hot for beer. Expect harsh solvent flavours (fusel alcohols).

 

[Queequeg]

It would appear most of the literature on the internet about homebrewing is not current/accurate then. Although I know there is somewhat a split opinion on secondary.

Well, still learning, Thanks for the info.

I think on my next batch I will leave it in primary for another week or so based on the advice in this thread. I still think I will use a secondary stage, because I always seem to disturb the yeast cake slightly when syphoning, even if its just for a few days.

 

[progmac]

there are no issues doing what you describe. just be sure to sanitize your carboy, minimize splashing when racking, and yes, use an airlock. don't add yeast.

 

[cwbys4evr]

Am I missing something? Granted I'm a complete noob but you have a 6.6% abv. Does it really need to ferment more? Just asking. I am wondering what the purpose of secondary fermentation is, if anyone can expound on that one (not to hijack or anything)

 

[twistr25]

First off, secondary fermentation is just a name, it doesn't actually ferment more, when it gets to the end, it's done fermenting. Extra time in primary can help the yeast clean up after themselves, but after all the sugar is "eaten" fermentation is done

That's kind of the point, it comes down to a preference thing. Racking can cause some sediment to kick up, so by moving to secondary you would have a smaller amount of sediment in the next container, so when it is moved to bottling or the keg, there will be that much less trub to deal with. At the same time, I'm not trying to impress anyone with ultra clear beer and its more of a pain to me, so I skip it most of the time.

 

[cwbys4evr]

Oh, I see. Thanks

 

[Queequeg]

I'm been thinking about this down the pub whilst drinking a few pints of sharps Doombar.

I'm not sure it is quite true to say that secondary fermentation negatively effects clarity, since that both primary and secondary fermentation are essentially a settling process. What seems to be objectionable in this thread is that syphoning will effect turbidity, but this will be the case regardless of when it is done. If we asssume all other variables are equal, the increase in turbidity would surely be bigger when the amount of sediment to be distrubed is bigger. This is surely an justification for moving to secondary later say then end of week 2. To say secondary fermentation effects turbidity is imo to say serial decanting negatively effects turbidity which would be clearly false.

 

[CUrchin]

Read this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

 

[Queequeg]

Quite informative thread, thanks.

 

[CUrchin]

Also, there is information around about this site about using water bottles for fermentation/storage. Many feel that #1 or #2 bottles are okay, #7 are not. If you search around you should be able to find some threads on it.

 

[Elijah]

I have learnd a LOT thanks to you guys

Am I missing something? Granted I'm a complete noob but you have a 6.6% abv. Does it really need to ferment more?

I was aiming at 8% but this is my very first beer and I think, although unbottled and flat, tasts great!
I think the 1.01 is due to unfermentable sugars from steeped speciality malts (aromatic and cara pills).

So, it typically takes 3 weeks for your bottles to carb and condition. So after another 2 weeks, how will you have space for these other bottles?

Hummm ... I don't think 20 bottles of beer are too much drinken do you? If my brothers pay a visit (and they will) it's only a matter of hours for free space... Hence I wanted to carb in a 5L jug - Much easier to store, easier to cool in the frige, and perfect for a familiy visit :rockin:

 

[nhindian]

Yeah.. the thing that stood out to me isn't whether you should rack to secondary or not, but rather that you fermented at 80 deg F and seem quite happy to shrug it off..

 

[kombat]

Yeah.. the thing that stood out to me isn't whether you should rack to secondary or not, but rather that you fermented at 80 deg F and seem quite happy to shrug it off..

+1

I seriously doubt the OP's contention that the beer could possibly "taste great", even if it were cold and fully carbed. Warm and flat, it would be indistinguishable from nail polish remover.

 

[twistr25]

Hummm ... I don't think 20 bottles of beer are too much drinken do you? If my brothers pay a visit (and they will) it's only a matter of hours for free space... Hence I wanted to carb in a 5L jug - Much easier to store, easier to cool in the frige, and perfect for a familiy visit :rockin:

It's not, but to be properly carbed and conditioned, it should take 3 weeks total plus a few days in the fridge to dissolve the CO2 in solution. I've seen natural carbing in a keg before, but it still takes three weeks for it to properly do so.

Point here, don't be surprised if they are flat or don't taste quite right at the two week mark. Feel free to taste one before hand, but I would recommend giving it the three weeks to be better.

 

[Elijah]

While I do understand your point with the 80F (27c) issue - as I have already read a lot about it and the good folks on this forum stressed the issue; The fact is that I saved it at room temperature which is not idle, 25c at night 27c at day, as unfortunately I don't have the capacity to do otherwise - winter brewing would probably make my yeast happier and improve my beer.

Maybe I am lucky, Maybe its the holy water of Jordan River and the sea of Galilee (it's the holy land after-all), and maybe it's the prayers and blessings I said while brewing in that moonless night (This beer was brewed on the day of the Transfiguration)
and the simplest explanation may also have to do with my unconditional love for my first beer...

I am not a beer expert, and local (Israel) beer can't really make titles, but this almost-beer is already better than what we have locally and equals a few imported - to MY taste. People will taste it, they will give me comments to improve I am sure. That's ok!

I have tried to be critical of my beer, like I am with all my cooking, I already have notes to improve (bitterness), and I will try to compare it with "good beer" when it is finished. My aim is to improve while coping with the limitations I currently endure.

Not to compare myself with giants, but those invented extract brewing and BIAB had also to deal with limitations and reinvented brewing.

Hell, if anyone is willing to risk their lives I'll be sending some samples for educational drinking only

 

[twistr25]

A simple way you can control temperatures, if you haven't already run across it, without much space is a swamp cooler. Any tub shaped container that the bucket will fit in with some frozen water bottles is all you need. Much better than nothing.

It's a lifelong learning process and a hobby you have to enjoy, making mistakes will happen, but you will almost always get at least decent beer.

 

[Elijah]

I am starting to research some possibilities... maybe even a kickstarter worthy project