Beginner's Q #2: Why add sugars to bottles when I can simply add unfinished beer?

[Elijah]

Hey guys,

So the classic script states:
Wort+yeast (beer) to mature in 1st fermenter. Then bottle to carbonate or mature (or move to second fermenter first...).

My question as follows:
If I have a 1.01 beer which has ruffly the same amount of sugars needed to carbonate a 20L beer to 2.3 vols. Can I simply bottle the beer and let it dry/mature in the bottles saving some time and sugar?

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

Those residual sugars aren't going to be fermentable, so bottling the beer without priming sugar won't create any carbonation. At this point the yeast have eaten everything in the Wort that they can.

 

[Elijah]

I meant bottling before the fermentation completes. It's been 6 days fermenting, yeast is not active enough to make bubbles, but still alive and kicking...

 

[KepowOb]

If you'd prefer, you can add DME... But just like your 1.01 beer is finished fermenting (the leftover sugars are under unfermentable), DME has less fermentables than dextrose or sucrose...so you'll have to use more of it. Just google for a priming calculator.

 

[jeffjm]

Some commercial breweries will do much the same thing in the primary...google 'spunding valve' for more information. However, they are building up pressure in a metal vessel and have a way to bleed off excess carbon dioxide. You'd be putting still fermenting beer into glass, and if you do so too early, you run the risk of overcarbed beer and possibly bottle bombs. Priming sugar is much easier to control.

 

[corkybstewart]

Jeffjm is right. You really have no idea how much fermentable sugar is left in your beer, even if you take gravity readings. You'll end up with flat beer or bottle bombs with only an occasional success. If you keg your beer this is possible because you can always use your CO2 to make adjustments. My question to you is what are you trying to accomplish, not use sugar or save money?

 

[kh54s10]

Sugar does not cost much, you will not save any significant time since the beer will need to condition the about the same amount of time. I agree there is now way to accurately tell what carbonation level you would end up with. Totally flat to very dangerous bottle bombs.

Way to risky and no benefits.

 

[Elijah]

With a small apartment, wife, and soon a little baby - reducing the steps to minimum always comes handy...

spunding valve ...

thanks

 

[deuce40]

It's also a good idea to keep the beer on the yeast until done fermenting because it give them time to clean up after themselves. You'll have a better tasting beer in the end.

 

[501irishred]

With a small apartment, wife, and soon a little baby - reducing the steps to minimum always comes handy...

spunding valve ...

thanks

True enough, but bottle bombs don't go well with any of those things (especially the wife...).

My Great Granddad would "bottle when it looks like its almost done" per his recipes my Grandmother handed down to me. When relatives (old enough to remember his beer) would recollect about it, there are always stories of flat beer and the "it sounded like the barn blew up when all those bottles blew up" and even "all the fish died when he put his beer in the pond to keep them cool while they carbonated. I think they all blew at once!" (thats my personal favorite).

 

[Bobby_M]

You're going down a dangerous path here. Though it is possible to achieve, it's very silly to try guessing at residual fermentation. For one thing, you'd have to bottle when the sediment is still well suspended. You'll get a 1/2" of crap in the bottom of every bottle. At worst, all the bottles will explode. Have that happen when your wife is near, and you can forget about brewing in the future.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Just do it the right way with priming sugar. If brewing is too much of a hassle or expense at the moment, put it on a back burner. Not trying to be a d¡ck, but if the budget's tight and there's a li'l bundle of joy (read: expenses) on the way, home brewing shouldn't be a top priority. Safety of your young family, however, should be.

 

[KepowOb]

I totally get the time saving thing, I've got a wife and a 2-year old... But how much time does it take to make your priming sugar? I bought a 1kg bag of regular sugar at Costco for a few dollars, and it takes 5 minutes of it boiling in a cup of water for it to be ready. Of all the things I do for my brewing, it's probably one of the quickest and most pain free steps.

 

[boscobeans]

"which has ruffly the same amount of sugars needed to carbonate a 20L beer to 2.3 vols

Roughly is the key word in doing this.

Sure there are commercial breweries that do this in making cask ales and the like, however they have many years experience and very precise methods to prevent either flat or over carbed kegs.

The problem is you may get one of three results:

1. Flat beer.
2. Over carbed beer. (bottle bombs)
3. You may just hit it on the head.

As far as I can see, from all the reasons given by the other posters, it would just be a crapshoot and not worth eliminating the few extra steps done in more conventional priming.

bosco

 

[Elijah]

Well - thank you all...
and interesting stories

I think I will be sticking to the classic... priming sugar here we come

 

[dgr]

The "classic" way is krauesening. The "right" way is krauesening. Just throwing this out there to encourage discussion.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kraeusening

 

[KepowOb]

The "classic" way is krauesening. The "right" way is krauesening. Just throwing this out there to encourage discussion.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kraeusening

To encourage discussion? That's exactly what we were talking about, lol. Most people seem to agree that on a homebrew scale, the extra complexity of it is directly proportional to the increased probability of bottle bombs and/or flat beer.

 

[h22lude]

With a small apartment, wife, and soon a little baby - reducing the steps to minimum always comes handy...

spunding valve ...

thanks

You won't be saving yourself any time and barely save money. Sugar is extremely cheap so money shouldn't be a consideration. If you can't afford the sugar to carb 5 gallons of beer you might want to hold off on brewing until you can afford that.

Time wise, you won't be saving any time whatsoever. Your plan is to ferment the beer to about 90% then bottle and let it ferment the rest of the way which will cause CO2 build up in the bottles and hopefully carb the beer at the same time. First of all this is very dangerous and unpredictable. You may have some bottles carb perfectly, some undercarb and some bottle bombs all in the same batch. That will cost you money and time to clean up.

Putting sugar into a bottling bucket before you bottle can be done in less than 5 minutes. Just like money, if you don't have the time for that brewing might not be for you.

I'm all for finding ways of doing something different and for homebrewing this is definitely different. You can give it a try to see what happens to just know you might have more of a mess on your hands than you would if you just boiled water, added sugar and dumped it in a bottling bucket.


EDIT

Well - thank you all...
and interesting stories

I think I will be sticking to the classic... priming sugar here we come

Well I guess I didn't see a 2nd page to this thread lol I think you picked the right decision. Though I would like to see someone try this and give a write up of their findings. Without calculating the exact time when to bottle for the best possible carb, it will be nearly impossible to do this right. I think the time spend on figuring at what point in fermentation you need to bottle will be a lot more than making priming sugar.

 

[dgr]

To encourage discussion? That's exactly what we were talking about, lol. Most people seem to agree that on a homebrew scale, the extra complexity of it is directly proportional to the increased probability of bottle bombs and/or flat beer.

Sort of. The OP is talking about taking an unfinished beer and tossing it in there. Most of the people in this thread are suggesting using sugar/dme. If he had an OG and he also had a sample that he finished so he knew what the FG would be, then it'd be krauesening. Like you said, his approach is throwing darts at a board labeled bomb, flat and carbonated.

Most people seem to agree it's a heck of a lot less complex to grab a sixer on the way home yet here we all are. If he wants to put some science behind it, his likelihood of success should approach that of using sugar/dme. Someone already figured out how many oz/gallon of sugar we need to add to get proper carbonation. That math is pretty similar to krauesening; it's just been done for us.

 

[afabres]

I`ve done it a few times with good results. In England they do it very often (they call it spunding).

This is how I`ve done it.

You`ll need a refrigerator or a way to cool the fermentator.

You will need to stop the fermentation when the gravity is 1,004 OG or 1 ºP above the expected final gravity, or less if you want less carbonation, by putting the fermentator in the fridge below 50 ºF for Ales or below 32 ºF for lagers. The beer must be kept in the fridge for a few days.

You can transfer the beer to another fermentator to separate it from the yeast before lowering the temperature for better results.

Then just bottle and wait for a good beer.

 

[DocScott]

"You will need to stop the fermentation when the gravity is 1,004 OG or 1 ºP above the expected final gravity"

This is the problem. "Expected final gravity" is only an estimate unless you've brewed the recipe numerous times before and have exact control of your fermentation. And even then, nothing is for certain.

As others have said, this is risky. The piece I think some forget is that over carbonated bottles can explode. Yes it is messy to clean, but they can be extremely dangerous and can severely injure anyone that may be near it when it explodes.

Sure, people will have success with many things when they try it a couple of times. If this was a sound process with repeatable and desirable results, we would all do it all of the time.

In the new brewers forum, the best advice is what's been given: op theory would work but it's not worth the risks. Priming sugar is the way to go.


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[rocketsan]

Just do it the right way with priming sugar. If brewing is too much of a hassle or expense at the moment, put it on a back burner. Not trying to be a d¡ck, but if the budget's tight and there's a li'l bundle of joy (read: expenses) on the way, home brewing shouldn't be a top priority. Safety of your young family, however, should be.

This. End of suggestions...


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[mrdail87]

I agree with KepowOb. If you wanna simplify it, just use plain old table sugar for priming. There are plenty of free calculators that will tell you how much to add. Despite the rumors to the contrary, it actually works just fine with no off-flavors. Just make sure you boil it for 7 minutes or so.