Beersmith - What is the correct whirlpool steep time and temperature to use?

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chrisvan360

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Searched for this before posting. May have missed it but I couldn't find the answer to my specific question. I brewed a new recipe with the following during flameout/whirlpool:


Amarillo .24 oz at flameout
Mosiac .24 oz at flameout
Galaxy .24 oz at flameout

Amarillo .43 oz at 190 degrees
Mosiac .43 oz at 190 degrees
Galaxy .43 oz at 190 degrees

Amarillo .58 oz at 180 degrees
Mosiac .58 oz at 180 degrees
Galaxy .58 oz at 180 degrees

So basically I thru in the first round at flameout and let it sit (not whirlpooling yet) for 10 minutes. The temp when I threw them in was 210ish. When the 10 min was up it had dropped to 200. Then I whirlpooled with my CFC, got the temp down to 190, threw in the next round, let it sit. It was 187. I whirlpooled it down to 180, threw in the last round, let sit for 10 minutes. Temp was 175 when time was up. The I whirlpooled for 20 more min to bring down to temp and then I let it rest/settle for 30 min before transfer.

Big question I have is, how do I enter this into Beersmith? Right now I have the first round of hops entered at .24 oz, steep for 40 min, temp at 210. round two at .43 oz, steep for 30 min, 190. round three .58 oz, steep for 20 min, temp at 180.

Seems wrong. For example, the first round was only in there at 210 for 10 minutes, but it was also an attendee to the next two rounds at 190 and 180. I'm not sure how beersmith wants this type of thing entered...

Any tips?
 

Oginme

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Big question I have is, how do I enter this into Beersmith? Right now I have the first round of hops entered at .24 oz, steep for 40 min, temp at 210. round two at .43 oz, steep for 30 min, 190. round three .58 oz, steep for 20 min, temp at 180.

Seems wrong. For example, the first round was only in there at 210 for 10 minutes, but it was also an attendee to the next two rounds at 190 and 180. I'm not sure how beersmith wants this type of thing entered...

Any tips?
The way you have entered it is correct. While the hops were added for 10 minutes at around 210F, they sat in the wort for the full time of the hop steep/whirlpool. In reality, even if you had removed the flame out hops at 10 minutes, the oil acids and oils would have already been mostly extracted into the wort and would continue to isomerize with the heat.

Another tip for when you whirlpool/steep at a lower temperature: I created a 'hop' called 'whirlpool pause'. I add this when I am chilling down for 5 or 10 minutes before the whirlpool/steep hops are added and give it the full time that the brew will continue beyond the boil. For example, if I chill down to 170F before adding the steep hops for 20 minutes, I will set the 'whirlpool pause' hops to be added at 210F for 35 minutes - 15 minutes to chill down to 170F plus the 20 minutes of the hop steep.
 
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chrisvan360

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Thank you Oginme! So, for example, even though I put those hops in for a 10 min rest at 210F, it's still correct for me to enter them into BS at 210F for 40 min? That's my main concern. The hops were dropped in for the full 40 min whirlpool (acutally a little longer but just going with 40 min) but they were only exposed to the 210F for next min, then part of the cool down and sat and 190F, cool down..., etc. Attaching a pic for reference

Thanks for the tip on the whirlpool pause, i'll check that out.
 

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Oginme

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Yes, the 40 minutes steep is the correct way to enter it into BeerSmith. In essence, the hops will be in contact with the wort for the full 40 minutes. The temperature is really the starting point and you will be getting some isomerization of the hops throughout the full time of contact.
 

CascadesBrewer

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My input is...no matter how you enter them, you will likely be wrong. I assume the root of the question deals with IBU calculations. The 3 big issues with IBU calculations are:

1) Actual IBUs in a beer are shown to be very system dependent. Often homebrewers that have their beers analyzed are way off from the calculated IBUs. Way lower seems to be what I see more than anything. I believe the Tinseth formula is based on measurements using whole cone hops at Sierra Nevada on their equipment.

2) While IBU stands for International Bitterness Unit, the test for IBUs does not measure bitterness. It measures compounds that tend to be bitter (though not always). 10 IBUs from isomerized alpha acids (say from a 60 min addition) will be much more bitter than other alpha acids from whirlpool or dry hop additions. IBU levels are a pretty good way of comparing the bitterness of boil hop additions.

3) The formulas for calculating IBUs from whirlpool additions are much less proven than the (already inaccurate) formulas for boil additions. The massive levels of late and dry hopping done these days was unheard of a decade ago. As you point out, there would have to be very complex math and measurements to model your 210F to 175F rest over 20 minutes. I am sure you would end up with more bitterness if you held it at 210F than if you let the temp drop.

But in general, no matter how you enter them it probably does not have much impact on the overall IBU calculations. Personally, I don't put much weight into the calculated IBUs for hops added in a whirlpool. I know I get some bitterness, but it does not register to me nearly as the same bitterness I get from 60 minute additions.

On a related note...by default BeerSmith calculates flameout additions as 0 IBUs. That is how I calculated my recipes for years. Then when I first started adding whirlpool hops, it seemed odd that the 214F addition gave 0 IBUs but the 180F addition provided 5 IBUs. I started to tweak recipes to check the "Carry over boil hops to whirlpool" option with a whirlpool of 10 mins. Now the same recipe that was calculated at 45 IBUs came in at 60 IBUs. It makes me feel better to see some IBUs from "0 minute" additions, but I suspect the prior calculations were more accurate.
 

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