BeerSmith and IBUs

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The Pol

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So I am transferring my recipes from another software and placing them in BeerSmith... for some reason my IBUs are way off now. I am talking 20 IBUs off. I am using the same hop, same AA and same boil time in the recipe. I am also using the same type, leaf... so what gives. I have all of these recipes that I brew and now in BeerSmith they are apparently much more bitter? Whhhaaa?
 

Beerrific

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Are you using the same formula in each? (Rager, Tinseth, Garetz, etc.)
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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Yes... I am... this is frustrating. In my other software if I switch from tinseth to gartez the difference is like 3 IBU... in BeerSmith the difference is 23 IBU... so that doesnt match either.
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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I now have the recipe in three different softwares, including Brew Builder at Brewmasters Warehouse and BeerSmith is like 20 IBUs off. I have not purchased BeerSmith yet, but if I cant get this figured out, this will be the reason that I dont. I dont want to go messing up all of my tried and true recipes.
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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Do you need to manually adjust the AAs on your hops? The default may be different between the two programs. Just a thought.
Nope, I input my inventory with the correct type (leaf and pellet) and the correct AA. I am telling you, the AA, TIME and TYPE (leaf/pellet) are all identical.

I can put 1oz of 14.2 AA Leaf Magnum in BeerSmith for 90 minutes and it gives me 42.3 IBUs

I can put 1oz of 14.2 AA Leaf Magnum in StrangeBrew, or any other software, for 90 minutes and it gives me 37.4 IBUs

Multiply that by 4 additions and I end up 20 IBUs off... and I have no idea why.
 

ajf

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I would suspect that you haven't got Beersmith configured properly yet. I have the formulae for Garetz, Rager and Tinseth, and can check the calculations for you if you want.
All I need to know (for one recipe) is:
What formula are you using?
What is the pre-boil volume?
What is the pre-boil gravity?
What is the post boil volume?
How long do you boil?
What hop additions do you make in AA% and minutes to boil?
What types of hops are you using (whole leaf, plugs, or pellets)?

-a
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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I would suspect that you haven't got Beersmith configured properly yet. I have the formulae for Garetz, Rager and Tinseth, and can check the calculations for you if you want.
All I need to know (for one recipe) is:
What formula are you using?
What is the pre-boil volume?
What is the pre-boil gravity?
What is the post boil volume?
How long do you boil?
What hop additions do you make in AA% and minutes to boil?

-a

If all of the softwares are using Tinseth... what is there to configure? Why is it that I can use ProMash, BTP, Brew Builder... and they all come out the same in Tinseth, but when I have BeerSmith set up in Tinseth it comes out 20 IBUs higher? What else can I configure?
 

Beerrific

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I use Beer Alchemy (for Macs), and I know it has an issue with the volumes. It will drop the IBUs if the volume of finished beer (or volume at pitching) is less than the volume at the end of the boil. Treats the IBUs as if they are finite quantity not a concentration.

Anyway, maybe it is a volume thing.
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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Okay...

Preboil volume 7.7 gallons at 1.062

90 miunute boil

1oz 14.2AA for 90 min
1.5oz 7.8AA for 45 min
.5oz 7.8AA for 20 min
1.0oz 7.8AA for 10 min

POST boil volume is 5.3 gal at 1.104 (2 pounds honey in boil)

I am getting 94.9 IBUs Tinseth in BeerSmith
I am getting 73.5 IBUs Tinseth (give or take 1 IBU) with everything else.
 

polecreek

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Pol why are you still playing with Beersmith? I thought last week you said it was the worst software you had tried.
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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Pol why are you still playing with Beersmith? I thought last week you said it was the worst software you had tried.
THEY ARE ALL THE WORST!!!

There is a critical flaw in each one...
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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I have a few trial versions... but for some reason BeerSmith is not calculating my IBUs correctly. All of the other softwares worked fine in that respect, without "tinkering"
 

ajf

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If all of the softwares are using Tinseth... what is there to configure? Why is it that I can use ProMash, BTP, Brew Builder... and they all come out the same in Tinseth, but when I have BeerSmith set up in Tinseth it comes out 20 IBUs higher? What else can I configure?
Tinseth requires all of the questions that I asked except for the formula used (which is assumed to be Tinseth).
If Beersmith makes different projections for any of the parameters, then the IBU's calculated will be incorrect.
Is Beersmith set up to correctly identify the boil-off rate, and the pre-boil volume? I know that when I switched to Tinseth in Promash, it gave me very inaccurate results because I switched from a 15% boil off rate to 15 gallons per hour at the same time. When I corrected this problem, the results were much more reasonable.

If you want some help, I'm prepared to sacrifice an hour or so in doing the math. If you don't, then that's fine. I have many other things that I can do.

-a.

P.s. Getting to work
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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Tinseth requires all of the questions that I asked except for the formula used (which is assumed to be Tinseth).
If Beersmith makes different projections for any of the parameters, then the IBU's calculated will be incorrect.
Is Beersmith set up to correctly identify the boil-off rate, and the pre-boil volume? I know that when I switched to Tinseth in Promash, it gave me very inaccurate results because I switched from a 15% boil off rate to 15 gallons per hour at the same time. When I corrected this problem, the results were much more reasonable.

If you want some help, I'm prepared to sacrifice an hour or so in doing the math. If you don't, then that's fine. I have many other things that I can do.

-a.

P.s. Getting to work
I already posted the info... it is a few posts back. I posted it a while ago on Page 1 of this thread. All of the boil off rates are the same. Boiling from 7.7 gallons to 5.3 gallons over 90 miunutes. This is the frustrating part, EVERYTHING is identical. I have spent about three hours of my own time trying to figure out what is different.
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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Any ideas? Or should I just give up?
 

ajf

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Sorry it took so long. I have a calculator on my laptop, but I left it at work and had to do it manually.
Because I did it manually, I may be 3 - 4 IBU's out.

If you add the honey at the start of the boil, I estimate the IBU's using Tinseth as being 65.
If you add the honey at the end of the boil, I estimate them as 72.
So it looks as though Beersmith is way out, but that could be because of the gravity and volume forecasts that Beersmith assumed.

-a.
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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What if I told you that when I take the honey out of the equation... it is still WAY off? Even with each software assuming the EXACT same pre-boul volume, pre-boil gravity, post boil volume and post boil gravity. There is no reason for a 20 IBU difference here.
Actually completely removing the honey from BOTH recipes, did not change the IBU calculation in any of the programs at all. They are still 20 IBU off.
 

FlyGuy

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Here is what I get in Beersmith. You haven't posted your recipe, so I had to guess at a lot of it. I get only 78.6 IBU using Tinseth.


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.30 gal
Boil Size: 7.70 gal
Estimated OG: 1.105 SG
Estimated Color: 5.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 78.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
16.75 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 89.33 %
1.00 oz Magnum [14.20 %] (90 min) Hops 38.4 IBU
1.50 oz Magnum [7.80 %] (45 min) Hops 27.1 IBU
0.50 oz Magnum [7.80 %] (20 min) Hops 6.0 IBU
1.00 oz Magnum [7.80 %] (10 min) Hops 7.1 IBU
2.00 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 10.67 %


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 16.75 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 20.94 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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I have 17.25 pounds of grain, but the hop adds are the same. The rest is the same and it is showing me exactly 94.9 IBU. Dude, I give up, I have spent probably no less than 6 hours making sure all of the volumes in wach program match perfectly. It would have to be WAY off to get me a 20% difference in IBUs
 

avaserfi

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I get 80.8 IBU set to leaf hops (which are -10%) and about 89 IBU set to pellet with the same recipe as above with honey added after the boil.
 

FlyGuy

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Pol - can you upload your recipe as a BSM file? I can open it on my computer and see if it is a software issue (perhaps we have different versions that are causing the discrepancy)?
 
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The Pol

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I have no idea how to upload a file here from BeerSmith.
 

GreenwoodRover

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After my latest round of competition comments telling me I needed more hops, i also started to suspect my software

Here is what I get in Beersmith. You haven't posted your recipe, so I had to guess at a lot of it. I get only 78.6 IBU using Tinseth.


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.30 gal
Boil Size: 7.70 gal
Estimated OG: 1.105 SG
Estimated Color: 5.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 78.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
16.75 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 89.33 %
1.00 oz Magnum [14.20 %] (90 min) Hops 38.4 IBU
1.50 oz Magnum [7.80 %] (45 min) Hops 27.1 IBU
0.50 oz Magnum [7.80 %] (20 min) Hops 6.0 IBU
1.00 oz Magnum [7.80 %] (10 min) Hops 7.1 IBU
2.00 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 10.67 %


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 16.75 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 20.94 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F
I loaded the same stuff in as above and came up with:
Set for all pellets i get:
OG 1.109
82.6 IBU

Set for all leaf i get:
IBU = 74.4

I have it set to calc boil volume automatically with boil off set to 15% and "lost to trub and chiller" set to .5gal
 

ArcaneXor

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For pellets, I get:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.30 gal
Boil Size: 7.70 gal
Estimated OG: 1.104 SG
Estimated Color: 7.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 90.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
18.15 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 90.07 %
1.00 oz Warrior [14.20 %] (90 min) Hops 44.0 IBU
1.50 oz Pearle [7.80 %] (45 min) Hops 31.1 IBU
0.50 oz Northern Brewer [7.80 %] (20 min) Hops 6.8 IBU
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [7.80 %] (10 min) Hops 8.2 IBU
2.00 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 9.93 %


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 18.15 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 22.69 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F

For leaf hops (and playing my efficiency a bit), I get

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.30 gal
Boil Size: 7.70 gal
Estimated OG: 1.104 SG
Estimated Color: 6.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 81.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
15.90 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 88.83 %
1.00 oz Warrior [14.20 %] (90 min) Hops 39.6 IBU
1.50 oz Pearle [7.80 %] (45 min) Hops 28.0 IBU
0.50 oz Northern Brewer [7.80 %] (20 min) Hops 6.2 IBU
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [7.80 %] (10 min) Hops 7.4 IBU
2.00 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 11.17 %


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 15.90 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 19.88 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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Yeah, I dunno. I wasted so much time with it. I am glad I didnt buy it before figuring it out... because if it takes me 6 hours to get a recipe figured out (which I have yet to do), then I am better off with sticky notes.
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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No, I spent 6 hours trying to simply input a recipe and get the same outcome I get everywhere else. I wasted all my time doing something I thought was a no-brainer. Apparently I am not smart enough to use BeerSmith, but I am perfectly capable of using ProMash thank God.
 

BeerSmith

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Pol,
If you would post or email your recipe to me I would be happy to take a look at it. In general the calculations should be the same, but your choice of ingredients, equipment, options, etc can have a large effect on the calculations.

You can email your recipe by just going to your "My Recipes" view, select the recipe you want to mail and then pick "Mail Selected Items" on the "Actions" menu. Send it to beersmith at our beersmith.com domain name.

Cheers,
Brad
 

BeerSmith

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OK,
I entered the recipe as you had it listed at the top of the post above.

He did not provide the alpha content of the hops or his boil volume, but just going off the default hop entries in BeerSmith and the 7.7gal boil volume you provided I came up with 69.7 IBUs for Tinseth, vice his listing which has it as 75 IBUs. Also I used your boil/finish volumes.

Keep in mind that a small thing, like taking the Horizon hops to 14% IBU vice 12% would drive it back up to 75 IBUs.

Cheers,
Brad

---------------------------------------------------
BeerSmith Recipe Printout - BeerSmith Brewing Software, Recipes, Blog, Wiki and Discussion Forum
Recipe: Imperial Honey Porter
Brewer: Saccharomyces
Asst Brewer:
Style: Robust Porter
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.30 gal
Boil Size: 7.43 gal
Estimated OG: 1.096 SG
Estimated Color: 28.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 69.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 55.56 %
4.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 22.22 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.56 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.78 %
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.78 %
1.00 oz Horizon [12.00 %] (60 min) Hops 34.9 IBU
1.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (45 min) Hops 22.0 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (20 min) Hops 4.8 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (15 min) Hops 7.9 IBU
2.00 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 11.11 %
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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OK,
I entered the recipe as you had it listed at the top of the post above.

He did not provide the alpha content of the hops or his boil volume, but just going off the default hop entries in BeerSmith and the 7.7gal boil volume you provided I came up with 69.7 IBUs for Tinseth, vice his listing which has it as 75 IBUs. Also I used your boil/finish volumes.

Keep in mind that a small thing, like taking the Horizon hops to 14% IBU vice 12% would drive it back up to 75 IBUs.

Cheers,
Brad

---------------------------------------------------
BeerSmith Recipe Printout - BeerSmith Brewing Software, Recipes, Blog, Wiki and Discussion Forum
Recipe: Imperial Honey Porter
Brewer: Saccharomyces
Asst Brewer:
Style: Robust Porter
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.30 gal
Boil Size: 7.43 gal
Estimated OG: 1.096 SG
Estimated Color: 28.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 69.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 55.56 %
4.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 22.22 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.56 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.78 %
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.78 %
1.00 oz Horizon [12.00 %] (60 min) Hops 34.9 IBU
1.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (45 min) Hops 22.0 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (20 min) Hops 4.8 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (15 min) Hops 7.9 IBU
2.00 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 11.11 %
SORRY, my Horizon is 14.2 and my Cascade are 7.2 AA...

No matter what I do, I am getting 95 IBUs... but every other software on the market is in the 75 IBU area.
 

avaserfi

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Using the stock Beersmith values Horizon at 12% and Cascade at 5.5% I get 71.5 IBUs Tinseth that is with a 7.43 pre-boil and 5.3 post boil. Same stuff with 14.2% Horizon and 7.2% Cascade I get 89.1 IBU Tinseth. Note: honey was included on flame out.
 

BeerSmith

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Hi,
A minor point, but if you boil the honey for 60 min (uncheck the add after boil switch in the honey in BeerSmith - which is the default for all of the other programs) you come out with 81 IBUs for BeerSmith vice 78.8 using another program. If I matched up all of the ingredient parameters (grain potentials, equipment settings, leaf vs pellet, etc), the difference would be even smaller.

Now, personally I would not boil the honey but instead add it at flameout or even later. Boiling it strips away most of the delicate flavors - you might as well add sugar to the beer instead.

Cheers,
Brad
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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Hi,
A minor point, but if you boil the honey for 60 min (uncheck the add after boil switch in the honey in BeerSmith - which is the default for all of the other programs) you come out with 81 IBUs for BeerSmith vice 78.8 using another program. If I matched up all of the ingredient parameters (grain potentials, equipment settings, leaf vs pellet, etc), the difference would be even smaller.

Now, personally I would not boil the honey but instead add it at flameout or even later. Boiling it strips away most of the delicate flavors - you might as well add sugar to the beer instead.

Cheers,
Brad
For giggles I removed the honey all together, it didnt change the IBU calc.

BTW the honey goes in at the end of the boil.
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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Nope... maybe there is a way, but my time, is money. I spent more than maybe 12 hours of my own time checking and re-checking and running the same parameters through different programs. Still, I had no luck... unless it is an issue with the trial version of BeerSmith... but in any case I can t purchase it hoping that it will be resolved in the real version.

I bought Promash, it worked the first time with no tweaking and the recipe paramters for all of my tried and true recipes, came out the same as they always have. I needed a way to track inventory and calculate recipes... ProMash did the trick. I know a lot of people use BeerSmith, I just could not get it to duplicate results, and after 12 hours of combined tweaking time and posting here, I had to cut my losses.
 

taylorharris50

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I use Beer Alchemy (for Macs), and I know it has an issue with the volumes. It will drop the IBUs if the volume of finished beer (or volume at pitching) is less than the volume at the end of the boil. Treats the IBUs as if they are finite quantity not a concentration.

Anyway, maybe it is a volume thing.
How do you like Beer Alchemy in general? I am testing it at the moment and like it in general (but a few crashes). $30 is a little pricey but I think they will let you share a license between 3 machines / users.
 

Boerderij_Kabouter

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Bummer of a story Pol. I love BeerSmith, it has been the easiest to use for me...

I wonder if it is a system config problem on your computer or a corrupt file or something... it just seems like such an easy program to use, I have a hard time believing it was working properly.
 
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The Pol

The Pol

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Bummer of a story Pol. I love BeerSmith, it has been the easiest to use for me...

I wonder if it is a system config problem on your computer or a corrupt file or something... it just seems like such an easy program to use, I have a hard time believing it was working properly.
It may not be? But, I loaded it three times and messed with it profusely. Which seems silly, when I can place he same recipes in any other program and have it spit out the correct results within 20 minutes. I really have no motivation to spend any more valuable time trying to figure out what the deal is.
 
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