Beersmith 3 ibu's

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Louz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
103
Reaction score
69
Location
Slower Lower, De
I'm inputting some old recipes into BS3 and I'm having a hell of a time getting the ibu's and the srm right. This particular recipe is for 5 gallon extract. I have the equipment setting correct, the alpha acids correct as you can see from the attachments. But theres no way this recipe is 113 ibu's. This was from a kit from home brew supply that listed the ibu's at 66. Also the srm on BS3 shows 14.3.... the recipe states 8.5.
Is there something I've done wrong here?? Thanks
Screenshot (78).png
Screenshot (79).png
 
OP
Louz

Louz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
103
Reaction score
69
Location
Slower Lower, De
Yes. That was according to the recipe. Matter of fact, almost every extract kit I've ever done states 2.5 gallon boil, with a top off to reach 5 gallon into the fermentor. Increasing the boil volume only increases the ibu's also.
 

Oginme

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
1,966
Reaction score
934
In your equipment profile, unclick the box that states to estimate boil hop utilization in whirlpool. The program automatically assumes that you have a 20 minute whirlpool when this is clicked and adds the additional utilization into the calculation.

The kit from the homebrew supply store listed the IBU as 66 using what model? Different models (Tinseth, Rager, Garetz) will give you very different results, especially the higher the IBU estimation is.

I would double check the SRM on your light malt extract as well to make sure that matches what you have. Most of the light DME that I get has a color of around 4L.

Likewise, the model for color that BeerSmith uses (Morey) uses Lovibond to estimate the color of the wort from the malt. The program has stated color in SRM for several years, but this is not how the model works and I have done lots of testing to verify that the color of the malts/extracts should be entered as Lovibond.
 

Soulshine2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2017
Messages
2,161
Reaction score
1,003
Location
Grant
I can barely see it (between my eyesight and the size of the font) but besides your pre boil amount is 2.5 (half of your expected finished amount. )that would definitely have an impact on the projected SRM and IBU values.
Am I seeing the hop utilization value is 100%? I dont think that is realistic, more like 40% . And for all extract, you don't need to do a full 60 minute boil, it will make it darker because of how much you lose in boil off rate .5 from a 2.5 is 1/5 of the amount. 30minutes is long enough.
what scales are they using in that program?
 
OP
Louz

Louz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
103
Reaction score
69
Location
Slower Lower, De
In your equipment profile, unclick the box that states to estimate boil hop utilization in whirlpool. The program automatically assumes that you have a 20 minute whirlpool when this is clicked and adds the additional utilization into the calculation.

The kit from the homebrew supply store listed the IBU as 66 using what model? Different models (Tinseth, Rager, Garetz) will give you very different results, especially the higher the IBU estimation is.

I would double check the SRM on your light malt extract as well to make sure that matches what you have. Most of the light DME that I get has a color of around 4L.

Likewise, the model for color that BeerSmith uses (Morey) uses Lovibond to estimate the color of the wort from the malt. The program has stated color in SRM for several years, but this is not how the model works and I have done lots of testing to verify that the color of the malts/extracts should be entered as Lovibond.
Ahh. Good stuff sir. I did not notice the boil hop utilization box. This recipe did not call for a whirlpool.
That brought the IBU's down to 84.

The kit IBU's is calculated in Tinseth, which I believe BS3 is also set to Tinseth by default correct?

As for the color.. If I understand you correctly, I need to enter Lovibond into the SRM value? For example the first fermentable in this recipe is 1lb 2oz of dark munich malt with an entered SRM value of 11. This malt is listed at 8-10* L. So I need to change the BS3 "SRM" value to 9?
 
OP
Louz

Louz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
103
Reaction score
69
Location
Slower Lower, De
I can barely see it (between my eyesight and the size of the font) but besides your pre boil amount is 2.5 (half of your expected finished amount. )that would definitely have an impact on the projected SRM and IBU values.
Am I seeing the hop utilization value is 100%? I dont think that is realistic, more like 40% . And for all extract, you don't need to do a full 60 minute boil, it will make it darker because of how much you lose in boil off rate .5 from a 2.5 is 1/5 of the amount. 30minutes is long enough.
what scales are they using in that program?
2.5 gallon boil seems to be common among extract brewing instructions. With a top off to 5 gallons into the fermentor.

I believe the default hop utilization is 100%, which is recommended for most home brewing scenarios under 20 gallons. I find this to be odd as well. But I have read in a few threads to leave it at 100%, which I will do unless someone can prove otherwise.

And like the 2.5 gallon boil, the instructions called for a 60 minute boil. I understand there are many ways to do this which is part of the fun. But in this case, I am trying to recreate the recipe based on the instructions in the kit. Perhaps .5 gallon boil off is bit high even for a 60 minute boil.
 

Oginme

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
1,966
Reaction score
934
Ahh. Good stuff sir. I did not notice the boil hop utilization box. This recipe did not call for a whirlpool.
That brought the IBU's down to 84.

The kit IBU's is calculated in Tinseth, which I believe BS3 is also set to Tinseth by default correct?

As for the color.. If I understand you correctly, I need to enter Lovibond into the SRM value? For example the first fermentable in this recipe is 1lb 2oz of dark munich malt with an entered SRM value of 11. This malt is listed at 8-10* L. So I need to change the BS3 "SRM" value to 9?

Tinseth is the default, but you can check it or change it if you wish by clicking on 'options' > 'bitterness' and then clicking the drop down menu for the embedded choices.

We had a long discussion on this on the BS forum a number of years ago and the suggestion was made to change the malt color to Lovibond. I don't know why Brad has chosen to keep the label in the malt profiles as SRM, but even his blog posting on estimating wort color starts and uses Lovibond. Entering SRM for malt color gives you an artificially high reading. My own testing of wort color (it is nice to work with a well stocked lab) demonstrates that Lovibond is the correct values in the malt profiles. Given this, your changes listed above would be correct.
 

Soulshine2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2017
Messages
2,161
Reaction score
1,003
Location
Grant
2.5 gallon boil seems to be common among extract brewing instructions. With a top off to 5 gallons into the fermentor.

I believe the default hop utilization is 100%, which is recommended for most home brewing scenarios under 20 gallons. I find this to be odd as well. But I have read in a few threads to leave it at 100%, which I will do unless someone can prove otherwise.

And like the 2.5 gallon boil, the instructions called for a 60 minute boil. I understand there are many ways to do this which is part of the fun. But in this case, I am trying to recreate the recipe based on the instructions in the kit. Perhaps .5 gallon boil off is bit high even for a 60 minute boil.
Depends on how aggressive your boil is. Mine barely gets to a violent rolling boil. More of a gentle ripple boil. Still accomplishes the same outcome, just doesn't jump out of the kettle.
 
OP
Louz

Louz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
103
Reaction score
69
Location
Slower Lower, De
Changing the SRM values to Lovibond brought the color down from 14.3 to 9.7. So is that 9.7 Lovibond or 9.7 SRM? I'm confusing myself lol. The recipe states an SRM of 8.5... I want to make sure I am comparing the two correctly.
Screenshot (80).png
[/QUOTE]
 

Soulshine2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2017
Messages
2,161
Reaction score
1,003
Location
Grant
I would trust it as a lovibond value and if you're only 0.5 off , you're on the right track.
 

Oginme

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
1,966
Reaction score
934
The color of malts is expressed as Lovibond. Lovibond is a comparative measure of color of the ground malt versus color standards and can be measured only by reflective measurement techniques.

The color of beer, wort and other non-opaque materials is expressed as SRM. SRM is a measure of absorption of transmitted light through a cuvet of the liquid with a path length (thickness of the fluid) of 1 cm. Since most of the light used for measurement would pass through the liquid sample, you cannot measure accurately by reflective methods.

Given the different color of similarly named malts from different suppliers, lot to lot variations, and color development potentials of different boil vigors, a difference of 1 or 2 SRM in the final estimation is close enough.
 
OP
Louz

Louz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
103
Reaction score
69
Location
Slower Lower, De
Thank you for that explanation. I don't think I made my question clear though. Please bear with me.

Now that I have entered ingredient Lovibond numbers into Beersmit3h SRM fields... this recipe now has a color of 9.7 "SRM". But really it is 9.7 Lovibond correct?

And my included kit instructions listed the color at 8.5 SRM. So correct me if I'm wrong, but now I am comparing 9.7 Lovibond (BS3) to 8.5 SRM (kit instructions).
Wouldnt I now have to convert one of them to get a fair comparison of apples to apples?

Forgive me if this is too much geekery. I'm just learning Beersmith and I want to lay a good foundation down as my brewing continues to grow.

Thanks
 

Oginme

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
1,966
Reaction score
934
'The color of beer, wort and other non-opaque materials is expressed as SRM.'

Since your wort and beer are liquids and transmit light then the value of 9.7 is SRM. The Morey equation for color converts the amount and colors of the grains (Lovibond) into wort color (SRM) as the output.
 
OP
Louz

Louz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
103
Reaction score
69
Location
Slower Lower, De
Thank you for explaining this. I get it now. This has been a big help for my own understanding
 

GPNewBrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Messages
54
Reaction score
44
One comment on the ibu calc you are getting. A lot of this has to do with hop utilization, which will change based on the specific gravity of the wort at the time you add the hops. You need to make sure that your initial partial boil amount is in proportion to your partial extract add. I think if you have a diluted wort, your ibu will be higher. One of the nice things about BS3 is that you can play around with quantities and times and see how your ibu/srm calcs are effected.
 

Blazinlow86

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,680
Reaction score
735
Just to add if you've unchecked the "whirpool hop" utilization box but aren't chilling *immediately* at flame out you will be getting higher ibus then predicted. That little box makes a huge difference in my experience and with my process/setup leaving that box unchecked makes a overly bitter beer ever time. Just a fyi. Cheers
 

ScrewyBrewer

ezRecipe - Beer Recipe Design Made Easy!
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
1,805
Reaction score
419
Location
New Jersey
Thank you for that explanation. I don't think I made my question clear though. Please bear with me.

Now that I have entered ingredient Lovibond numbers into Beersmit3h SRM fields... this recipe now has a color of 9.7 "SRM". But really it is 9.7 Lovibond correct?

And my included kit instructions listed the color at 8.5 SRM. So correct me if I'm wrong, but now I am comparing 9.7 Lovibond (BS3) to 8.5 SRM (kit instructions).
Wouldnt I now have to convert one of them to get a fair comparison of apples to apples?
A SRM value of 8.5 translates to 6.8 Lovibond and 16.7 EBC if that helps you. Where the conversion formulas go like this. EBC equals SRM × 1.97, and °L equals (SRM + 0.76) ÷ 1.3546, and SRM equals EBC × 0.508.
 
Last edited:

kh54s10

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
18,715
Reaction score
5,454
Location
Edgewater
Probably way too late for the OP, but I would not worry too much about the color. The process you use in adding the extract could throw that out the window anyway.

Add all the extract at the beginning of the boil and your SRM will be way dark. Split 1/2 at the beginning an 1/2 at the end of the boil and it will be closer. A strong boil will be darker than a mild boil. etc.
 
Top