Beers too sweet

[zoomzilla]

I've been working on drying out me beers because they all have a really sweet backbone to them and I thought it was due to incorrect hop balance or too high mash temperatures leaving behind complex sugars. I've brewed a couple beers at around 148-150F and it's really brought my final gravity down. I've also worked on BU:GU ratios and I've nailed them for their particular style(IPA
and DIPA) but i'm still getting beers with a lot of sweetness. I'm beginning to wonder if it could be a mash ph issue. I've been using half RO half tap water and using phosphoric acid and gypsum to lower mash Ph. I don't have a water report so it's possible that I'm trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist and lowering the mash ph too much in the process. Does anyone have experience with overly sweet beers? Does anyone know what beer tastes like when mash ph is too low?

 

[Callacave]

I think there's a misconception between higher FG and sweetness. Typically a higher FG doesn't necessarily give you sweetness, but a fuller mouthfeel.

My guess would be the amount of crystal/caramel malts you're using, certain yeasts could give you perception of sweetness, and even some types of hops can leave a sweetness especially if used late in the boil.

 

[A2HB]

If you bottle, how much priming sugar are you using for your batches? Also what kind of sugar do you use?

 

[Allergic2hops]

I've been dealing with the same issue to a certain extent. As my efficiency goes up so does the ending sweetness. I've been unable to get my beer down below 1.020. Essentially it comes down to needing more yeast. I am using the smack packs and they are fine for an OG of 1.060 or lower. The last 5 batches of mine have been 1.070 which means I need more yeast (advice from my LHBS). So I have a choice either do a starter the week before or re hydrate some safale 05 and add it to the beer after initial fermentation ends. Also my LBHS also mentioned that the cell count of the smack packs is 1/3 that of the dry yeast packs. So just to prove that theory I am going do a smash and use the re hydrated Safale 05 and see how low the 200 billion extra yeast cells take me down. If it does what I think it will, I am going to do a yeast starter on the following batch. That should get me down to 1.011 like I want.

A third option was to add an additional smack pack to the initial fermentation. But at $8 a pack, I'm going to try the yeast starter.

A2H

 

[stpug]

I think there's a misconception between higher FG and sweetness. Typically a higher FG doesn't necessarily give you sweetness, but a fuller mouthfeel.

My guess would be the amount of crystal/caramel malts you're using, certain yeasts could give you perception of sweetness, and even some types of hops can leave a sweetness especially if used late in the boil.

In addition, your malt choices, adjunct choices, and yeast strain can influence sweetness in beer.

While nailing a specific BU:GU may seem correct, yeast strain can be a major factor in final ratio due to it's ability to attract and flocc hop oils thereby reducing overall bitterness.

 

[JonM]

What are your grain bills like? Are you using a lot of crystal/caramel malts, carapils, etc.?

How about bittering hop additions? How much and what type are you using? (Bitterness can counter sweetness.)

And - are you sure your thermometer is accurate?

 

[zoomzilla]

If you bottle, how much priming sugar are you using for your batches? Also what kind of sugar do you use?

I don't bottle, I keg all of my beer

What are your grain bills like? Are you using a lot of crystal/caramel malts, carapils, etc.?

How about bittering hop additions? How much and what type are you using? (Bitterness can counter sweetness.)

And - are you sure your thermometer is accurate?

I'm doing a lot of IPA's and DIPA's right now. Some of them have a lot of crystal and some of them have none, but they all have the same sweetness. I usually bitter with an ounce at 60 and again with an ounce at 30 and most of them have at least 4oz after the 15 min mark.
The yeast may be a factor. I have used a starter and in my last DIPA i used a pack of us05 and a pack of notty, rehydrated. It turned out too sweet. I'm sure my thermometer is correct. I had issues with an older one and make sure to calibrate this one regularly. My next brew will be an ipa with half RO/half tap and no salts or acids. I can't see how that would do anything other than improve my IPA's but I'm running out of options.

 

[chickypad]

Can you post some of your recipes and numbers like OG/FG? I would be a little worried about you making water adjustments without knowing the base water profile - are you actually measuring pH? Besides getting the pH right for the mash there could also be some flavor implications with the water, for example most like moderate to high levels of sulfate to accentuate the bitterness in hoppy beers.

 

[1977Brewer]

I'd start over with your base water, de- chlorinated of course. Add RO if you need to, but start from home base there. Do a smash with 2 row, and a mid-alpha hop. Cascade makes a great smash ipa.

 

[cannman]

Use more yeast, ie make a starter. Lots of info on this forum. No one really likes sweet beer... trust me...

 

[JonM]

Maybe a different yeast? I've used 1272 in hoppy beers with good results and, thanks to some recommendations i saw here, I recently started using 1028. Some of the more experienced guys say it leaves more of a malty profile.

 

[zoomzilla]

Can you post some of your recipes and numbers like OG/FG? I would be a little worried about you making water adjustments without knowing the base water profile - are you actually measuring pH? Besides getting the pH right for the mash there could also be some flavor implications with the water, for example most like moderate to high levels of sulfate to accentuate the bitterness in hoppy beers.

Here's my latest recipe:
2-row 15lbs
C20- .25lbs
C40- .25lbs
C60- .25lbs
C120- .25lbs

1oz chinook 60 min
1oz palisade 30 min
1oz summit 15min
2oz palisade 10min
2oz summit 8min
1oz palisade 5min
1oz summit 4min

1 pack us05
1 pack notty both rehydrated, pitched into oxygenated wort(o2 diffusion)

90 min mash/90min boil
mash temp 148
OG 1.080
FG 1.009
IBU 135

water additions: 40 quarts total water 50/50 RO/tap
1 campden tab
60ml phosphoric acid(10%)
2 tsp gypsum
all added to water before mashing

5 gallons fermenter volume

Use more yeast, ie make a starter. Lots of info on this forum. No one really likes sweet beer... trust me...

I normally do a 2L starter of 1.040 wort and get the same overly sweet results.

 

[cannman]

OK, A+ with the o2 diffusion. What is your fermenter like? Do you have a dual climate control apparatus? It looks like you're doing things right, so I'm leaning toward improper fermenting conditions... (nothing personal, just deducing)

 

[JonM]

OK, A+ with the o2 diffusion. What is your fermenter like? Do you have a dual climate control apparatus? It looks like you're doing things right, so I'm leaning toward improper fermenting conditions... (nothing personal, just deducing)

That really doesn't sound right. If you're getting full attenuation on a 1.080 beer, the yeast is plenty happy.

I had a similar problem with sweet IPAs. I upped the bittering addition to 2 oz. of Columbus and that helped a lot. As I mentioned above, using something other than Chico yeast seems to help. On my next IPA, I'm going to ditch some or all of the 2-row in favor of more "malty" grains like Munich and Briess Pale Ale malt.

 

[zoomzilla]

OK, A+ with the o2 diffusion. What is your fermenter like? Do you have a dual climate control apparatus? It looks like you're doing things right, so I'm leaning toward improper fermenting conditions... (nothing personal, just deducing)

I ferment in a big mouth bubbler. In the winter and spring I have to set it in the kitchen because the basement is too cold. Temp on the tile kitchen floor I've measured as low as 57f and sitting on top of the fermenter I've measured as high as 68f. That's a big swing for only 2.5 feet of elevation. Could it be too cold sitting on the floor?

 

[cannman]

That really doesn't sound right. If you're getting full attenuation on a 1.080 beer, the yeast is plenty happy.

I had a similar problem with sweet IPAs. I upped the bittering addition to 2 oz. of Columbus and that helped a lot. As I mentioned above, using something other than Chico yeast seems to help. On my next IPA, I'm going to ditch some or all of the 2-row in favor of more "malty" grains like Munich and Briess Pale Ale malt.

Its possible for the beer to hit FG eventually like this did, but I'm talking about "the dead of night" or the "temps at high noon" that might cause the extra esters and off flavors we may be interpreting as "sweet."

It would be easier if we had a brew in front of us to nail it... HEY OP!

 

[stpug]

Here's my latest recipe:
2-row 15lbs
C20- .25lbs
C40- .25lbs
C60- .25lbs
C120- .25lbs

1oz chinook 60 min
1oz palisade 30 min
1oz summit 15min
2oz palisade 10min
2oz summit 8min
1oz palisade 5min
1oz summit 4min

1 pack us05
1 pack notty both rehydrated, pitched into oxygenated wort(o2 diffusion)

90 min mash/90min boil
mash temp 148
OG 1.080
FG 1.009
IBU 135

water additions: 40 quarts total water 50/50 RO/tap
1 campden tab
60ml phosphoric acid(10%)
2 tsp gypsum
all added to water before mashing

5 gallons fermenter volume

Gravity and grainbill alone will yield a sweet finish to this beer. When was the last time you drank a DIPA/IIPA that wasn't sweet? Seriously though - was not sweet? The more malt that you put in a beer, the sweeter the finished product will be. You may "balance" that sweetness with bitterness, but you don't counteract the sweetness - you simply balance bitterness with it. You will then have a beer whose bitterness is very prominent and whose sweetness balances well. This is probably the single biggest reason I dislike most high gravity beers, particularly DIPAs - they're always too sweet for my tastes in a big hoppy beer. Okay, maybe one is fine but then I want "normal" beer afterwards.

To pull off a DIPA that's truly dry can be tough. Suggestions would be:
-Aim for bottom end OG for the style range
-Utilize 5-10% table sugar
-100% (or 98%) base malt
-0-2% debittered roast malt for color (if desired; e.g. midnight wheat, black prinz)
-Mash low (like you did); 148F
-Sulphate levels of ~250-300ppm
-Use high attenuating and non malt-enhancing yeast strain (all US05)
-Maximize attenuation to reach low FG like you did to get the ABV you want
-Aim for BU:GU ratio of about 1.3-1.5
-Move your 15min-to-4min additions to 2 minutes (15/10) and hopstand additions (8/5/4); let hopstand last for 45 minutes starting at 175 and dropping.
-Dryhop with at least 3 oz

The same general line of thinking applies for dry IPAs, but less table sugar (or none). May not need to mash quite as low (150F). Shouldn't need as many hops since you'll be balancing a beer with less maltiness and sweetness. A drying, toasted character malt may help also (biscuit, victory, amber, even brown malt at 5% or less).

At least that's my take on it.

 

[Callacave]

Here's my latest recipe:
2-row 15lbs
C20- .25lbs
C40- .25lbs
C60- .25lbs
C120- .25lbs

1oz chinook 60 min
1oz palisade 30 min
1oz summit 15min
2oz palisade 10min
2oz summit 8min
1oz palisade 5min
1oz summit 4min

1 pack us05
1 pack notty both rehydrated, pitched into oxygenated wort(o2 diffusion)

90 min mash/90min boil
mash temp 148
OG 1.080
FG 1.009
IBU 135

water additions: 40 quarts total water 50/50 RO/tap
1 campden tab
60ml phosphoric acid(10%)
2 tsp gypsum
all added to water before mashing

5 gallons fermenter volume

I normally do a 2L starter of 1.040 wort and get the same overly sweet results.

With a beer around 9% you're going to get some sweetness alone from the amount of ethanol.

US-05 below 65 degrees can give you a peachy type of flavor that some people like and dislike. I wonder if these two combinations are a contributing factor

 

[zoomzilla]

Gravity and grainbill alone will yield a sweet finish to this beer. When was the last time you drank a DIPA/IIPA that wasn't sweet? Seriously though - was not sweet? The more malt that you put in a beer, the sweeter the finished product will be. You may "balance" that sweetness with bitterness, but you don't counteract the sweetness - you simply balance bitterness with it. You will then have a beer whose bitterness is very prominent and whose sweetness balances well. This is probably the single biggest reason I dislike most high gravity beers, particularly DIPAs - they're always too sweet for my tastes in a big hoppy beer. Okay, maybe one is fine but then I want "normal" beer afterwards.

To pull off a DIPA that's truly dry can be tough. Suggestions would be:
-Aim for bottom end OG for the style range
-Utilize 5-10% table sugar
-100% (or 98%) base malt
-0-2% debittered roast malt for color (if desired; e.g. midnight wheat, black prinz)
-Mash low (like you did); 148F
-Sulphate levels of ~250-300ppm
-Use high attenuating and non malt-enhancing yeast strain (all US05)
-Maximize attenuation to reach low FG like you did to get the ABV you want
-Aim for BU:GU ratio of about 1.3-1.5
-Move your 15min-to-4min additions to 2 minutes (15/10) and hopstand additions (8/5/4); let hopstand last for 45 minutes starting at 175 and dropping.
-Dryhop with at least 3 oz

The same general line of thinking applies for dry IPAs, but less table sugar (or none). May not need to mash quite as low (150F). Shouldn't need as many hops since you'll be balancing a beer with less maltiness and sweetness. A drying, toasted character malt may help also (biscuit, victory, amber, even brown malt at 5% or less).

At least that's my take on it.

Dipa is my favorite style and I know of many that don't have any more apparent sweetness than a dry IPA. Its possible that I'm just using enough hops although I doubt it. I still get a great deal of hop bitterness and flavor but the overwhelming sweetness it the main flavor characteristic. I still think it may have something to do with water additions bring the pH too low. I have a scotch ale in secondary right now that I didn't use any water additions. It will be about the same OG and FG so that should give me more info. Without a pH meter its going to be nothing more than a guess.

 

[Callacave]

Zoomzilla, a finishing pH that is lower will bring more crispness and tartness to your beer. I think you're looking in the wrong area with respect to pH.

stpug is spot on. Your recipe is getting into the triple IPA territory. Something that high in ABV is definitely going to give you some more sweetness.

Different yeast, lower your ABV to 6-7%. Less crystal will help too. Different hop choices can all help in reducing that perceived sweetness.

 

[zoomzilla]

Zoomzilla, a finishing pH that is lower will bring more crispness and tartness to your beer. I think you're looking in the wrong area with respect to pH.

stpug is spot on. Your recipe is getting into the triple IPA territory. Something that high in ABV is definitely going to give you some more sweetness.

Different yeast, lower your ABV to 6-7%. Less crystal will help too. Different hop choices can all help in reducing that perceived sweetness.

I am looking at my bittering additions and wonder if another ounce at 60min or even 1 at 90min might make all the difference in the world.