Beer tastes fine before bottling, terrible after.

[choff89]

I'm new to brewing - I've brewed 3 batches so far. The first was a Two Hearted clone that turned out perfect. The second two are awful - a pale ale and an English brown ale.

My first beer was I brewed at a friends house. He's been brewing for a while and has had a lot of success. It was an AG brew and I bottled using priming tablets. Turned out very well.

My next was also an AG brew. It tasted fine before bottling. I added 5 ounces of priming sugar (corn sugar) to the 5 gallon batch and stirred it into my bottling bucket to dissolve it all. After 3 weeks I opened one and it didn't taste like beer at all. It just had the taste of alcohol along with some sort of off caramel flavor. Almost stale tasting. It's now been almost 3 months and it tastes just as bad.

My last batch was an extract kit that was given to me as a gift. It was a brewer's best English brown ale, and I cold brewed some espresso to give it a coffee flavor. It sat in the fermenter for 2 weeks, and I added the cold brewed espresso and let it sit another week. It tasted fantastic on bottling day. Again, I added about 4 ounces of priming sugar (light brown sugar) to the bottling bucket and stirred to dissolve. It's now been 3 weeks and the beer has the exact same terrible off flavor that the pale ale did. It's just sort of an alcoholic flavor that tastes a bit stale. Luckily, the coffee flavor makes this beer almost drinkable.

What am I doing wrong with bottling that could be causing this? They were all conditioned at about the same temperature. I've heard that boiling the priming sugar in water before adding to the bottling bucket will help to evenly distribute the sugar, but is there another reason for doing this? These beers are all carbonated just fine.

 

[hotwatermusic]

When you boil the sugar, as well as dissolving, you are heat sanitizing it. You can often get away with poor sanitary habits after fermentation because the alcohol content makes for a poor environment for the microbes you want to avoid. HOWEVER, it's always best to try and be as conscientious as possible because there is so much time and effort put into every batch. You definitely want to put as much time into cleaning and sanitizing your bottles and may need to double check your capping regimen if you are noticing oxidized flavors. Are your bottles carbing up to the desired mouthfeel?

 

[David_Trucks]

How hard are you stirring to mix the sugar into the beer? You may be getting a stale flavor because you may be oxidizing the beer by stirring. The best way to mix the priming sugar is to boil in water, then let it cool. Then, pour that into your bottling bucket, THEN, rack the beer on top of it, which should mix the sugar and beer evenly. There could be another issue too, I don't know I'm still pretty new myself, but that "stirring" talk stood out to me.

 

[snow16]

It just had the taste of alcohol along with some sort of off caramel flavor...It's just sort of an alcoholic flavor that tastes a bit stale.

This screams oxidation to me. What exactly is your procedure for getting the beer into the bottles?

 

[choff89]

I suppose oxidation may be my problem. It makes sense since the first beer turned out fine using priming tablets.

Both beers carbed up fine. When bottling, I siphon from the bucket to the bottle using a bottle filler. I weighed the sugar in a measuring glass and slowing stirred the beer while slowly adding the sugar. I guess stirring it is a bad idea. I've heard of other people doing it this was with good results, but it does seem like a bad idea.

 

[choff89]

Also, I cleaned the bottles well for the batches that went bad. Rinsed with hot water after pouring, cleaned with bleach water and bottle brush the day before bottling, sanitized with star san on bottling day and filled.

My first beer (which turned out fine) were bottled with bottles that my friend had given me. He said he just rinsed them with hot water and I didn't do anything else to them. He never cleans his bottles (yikes!).

 

[lowtones84]

Do you transfer to a bottling bucket in order to bottle or straight from the primary? Do you boil the sugar in water before adding it to the beer, or just add the sugar in dry?

 

[MyCarHasAbs]

I stir gently after transferring the wort to the bottling bucket. But I don't create a vortex. If you're stirring hard enough to create a vortex (caves inward with a swirling wall on the outside) then I'd imagine you're oxidizing it. I call it the 1Mile p/hr stir. Slooooww.

Think Prius with 3 bad spark plugs slow.
Better yet, golf cart with two fat chicks up a hill slow.

 

[hotwatermusic]

Right! But let's call them healthy chicks, please. Once you add the priming sugar the yeast will get active again and won't mind scavenging a bit of o2. Gentle stirring should not cause noticeable off flavors.

 

[Gavin C]

A few things stand out to me

Stirring: Bad idea even if done "gently" and not needed if you are bottling correctly. Dissolve priming sugar in water, boil, let it cool for a bit, add to bottling bucket, rack on top of the priming solution. This will optimally mix the beer and priming solution without agitation and oxygenation.

Oxygenation is a real and present threat to your beer once alcohol is present. The alcohol greatly facilitates oxygenation which is not readily scrubbed by the active yeast as alluded to earlier.

Bottling bucket with bottling wand: It doesn't sound like you are using one. Makes a routine task very tricky indeed. Are you going from fermentor to bottles via a siphon with wand? This can also easily introduce oxygen as you have to continually re-prime the siphon.

Bleach: If you used bleach as a sanitizer on the bottles this will need to be followed by extensive rinsing to avoid a medicinal/band-aid taste

Some or all of the above factors may be contributing to the taste you are getting. Hope you figure it out for the next batch. Best of luck

 

[Likefully]

I have #$%ed good beers by not cleaning the pot i boiled the water for the priming sugar in. In my case the infection definitely came from the pot, even though I boiled water in it. I suspect that may be the source of the OPs problem.

on the mixing of the priming sugar - if you take a moderate amount of care to not stir too vigorously you won't oxidise the beer. But if you don't stir the beer once you have put the priming sugar in (i.e. just pour the beer onto it) it is likely that the sugar won't be mixed in evenly across all bottles.

If you stir the beer like a mad man possessed then you run the risk of oxidising the beer - but it is risk, not a certainty.

 

[Gavin C]

Add the beer to the priming solution and the mixing will effortlessly occur without any stirring. The end of ones tubing from the siphon can coil in the base of the bottling bucket. This will create a gentle subsurface mixing without surface agitation.

Keep it simple.

Add the priming solution to the beer and mixing is needed. This is not the optimal way to batch prime due to the aforementioned risks.

 

[choff89]

Yes, I use a bottling bucket and wand. I did not stir the sugar into the beer as slowly as 2 fat chicks on a golf cart going uphill.

It makes perfect sense - my first batch was great because I didn't stir the beer. I used priming tablets instead. With the 2 bad batches I stirred the priming sugar (dry) directly into the beer.

I highly doubt it's a contamination issue. I cleaned everything very well on the batches that are bad. And I didn't clean the bottles at all when I bottled the first beer that turned out great. I rinsed the bottles very well with a bottle jet after the bleach water soak/scrub.


Thanks for all the help. I'll bottle the next batch by boiling the priming sugar and water, adding to the bottling bucket, and siphoning the beer on top of it to mix.

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

One last thing, and I know it wasn't what you were asking about, but it's important because it's a common mistake and is easy to fix.

You had said you are using 5oz to prime your beers. Unless you are brewing more than 5 gallons, it's likely too much priming sugar. It's confusing because most kits or prepackaged priming sugar comes in 5oz bags, but you don't want to add that much or it will be over-carb'd.

You can use this calculator to figure out how much sugar to use, and you'll get the appropriate carb level for the style beer you made. http://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

Hope this helps, and best of luck on the next batch!

 

[brewprint]

Also, I cleaned the bottles well for the batches that went bad. Rinsed with hot water after pouring, cleaned with bleach water and bottle brush the day before bottling, sanitized with star san on bottling day and filled.

My first beer (which turned out fine) were bottled with bottles that my friend had given me. He said he just rinsed them with hot water and I didn't do anything else to them. He never cleans his bottles (yikes!).

Here's what I find interesting. You do not mention that you rinsed the bottles after you cleaned them with bleach water. I assume that you rinsed them once or twice, then let them dry, then sanitized?

I've bottled plenty of beer (too much) and have always boiled the sugar water, dumped in, then racked to the bottling bucket. I realize that you didn't mix the sugar with water when you dumped it in. I on the other hand ALWAYS stirred after I racked. Just very lightly and slowly. So I doubt that it's oxidized unless you had a bunch of bubbles in there.

I have also always noticed that after I bottle beer with sugar, that there is an off flavor if I open it too soon. Just like what you describe. Some beers it goes away quick and others not. Give it another week or two or has it already been that long? Some may think I'm crazy but there is without a doubt a different flavor until the yeast removes it.

 

[choff89]

I highly doubt it's a contamination issue. I cleaned everything very well on the batches that are bad. And I didn't clean the bottles at all when I bottled the first beer that turned out great. I rinsed the bottles very well with a bottle jet after the bleach water soak/scrub.

So yes, I rinsed the bottles well. I did stir the beer in the bottling bucket pretty well. Enough to make quite a vortex and I did so for at least a solid minute.

If you don't think it's oxidation, than what else might it be? Since it tasted great before bottling and terrible afterwards, is it safe to say that I'm doing something wrong during the bottling process?

 

[choff89]

.

 

[brewprint]

So yes, I rinsed the bottles well. I did stir the beer in the bottling bucket pretty well. Enough to make quite a vortex and I did so for at least a solid minute.

If you don't think it's oxidation, than what else might it be? Since it tasted great before bottling and terrible afterwards, is it safe to say that I'm doing something wrong during the bottling process?

If you made a vortex for about a minute that's a different story than just stirring gently. That very well could be oxidation. I've never stirred fermented beer like that.

 

[choff89]

Here's what I find interesting. You do not mention that you rinsed the bottles...



Give it another week or two or has it already been that long?

Did you even read any of this thread? It's been over 3 months since I bottled the first bad batch.

 

[brewprint]

Did you even read any of this thread? It's been over 3 months since I bottled the first bad batch.

I did and after reading through all of the replies I forgot that you said it had been 3 months. Just trying to help but I think we can both agree that your vortex is what probably caused the issue.

 

[Likefully]

I did and after reading through all of the replies I forgot that you said it had been 3 months. Just trying to help but I think we can both agree that your vortex is what probably caused the issue.

The vortex changes the story somewhat. I always stir to mix the priming sugar in, but have never stirred it vigorously enough to create a vortex.

However, I have read elsewhere on this forum that even stirring it enough to create a vortex won't cause oxidation - but thats an experiment I will let other people try!

 

[joshesmusica]

I have #$%ed good beers by not cleaning the pot i boiled the water for the priming sugar in. In my case the infection definitely came from the pot, even though I boiled water in it. I suspect that may be the source of the OPs problem.

on the mixing of the priming sugar - if you take a moderate amount of care to not stir too vigorously you won't oxidise the beer. But if you don't stir the beer once you have put the priming sugar in (i.e. just pour the beer onto it) it is likely that the sugar won't be mixed in evenly across all bottles.

If you stir the beer like a mad man possessed then you run the risk of oxidising the beer - but it is risk, not a certainty.

the pot idea makes no sense at all. anything above 140F kills off most pathogens. Anything that did survive a five minute boil, will likely not be able to survive in the beer.
as already mentioned, if you're siphoning correctly into your bottling bucket, you will automatically create the perfect, slow, gentle stir that is needed to evenly mix your priming sugar. put the priming sugar solution in first, siphon onto the bottom of the bucket, with a bit of a coil action (AKA so that the beer is leaving the siphon parallel to the bottom of the bucket), and you should be seeing your beer swirling around.
stirring it from the top is just not worth the risks.

So yes, I rinsed the bottles well. I did stir the beer in the bottling bucket pretty well. Enough to make quite a vortex and I did so for at least a solid minute.

If you don't think it's oxidation, than what else might it be? Since it tasted great before bottling and terrible afterwards, is it safe to say that I'm doing something wrong during the bottling process?

if you rinsed the chlorine really, really well, then it's hard to see that as the problem. but honestly you have no need to be using it. if you're using starsan and rinsing the bottle well with very hot water after you have emptied them, then the starsan should be sufficient.
personally i don't use starsan, i use iodine for sanitization. i don't really care to make a huge bucket of iodine solution to sanitize my bottles with. so i cap them all with foil and bake them in the oven for 20-25 mins. then let them cool (obviously). right before i fill them i take the foil off, then my brew partner caps them immediately.

the two things i suggest you look at for your next brew (because as per what you have mentioned they're the two things that were done differently than your first brew) are the chlorine and the vigorous (enough) mixing of the priming sugar. fix those two things and then report back to us if the problem persists.

besides those two things, definitely start using the priming sugar calc. although i don't think it's adding anything to your problem, you're likely over-carbonating your beers.

 

[Likefully]

the pot idea makes no sense at all.

for clarity, i think the source of the infection came from the lid of the pot.

 

[ArthurDigbySellers]

I agree that mixing in dry sugar vigorously is probably the source of the problem and will be easy to fix for your next brew. I do disagree with the posters saying that siphoning the beer on top of the sugar solution is enough mixing to ensure even distribution of the priming sugar. In my case it definitely was not. I would get some bottles that were barely carbed after 3 weeks while others were perfectly fine. I found that gently stirring the beer very slowly with a sanitized spoon after bottling every 6-pack or so really helped with keeping the carbonation even across the whole batch.

Good luck on your next batch!

 

[kombat]

If you stir the beer like a mad man possessed then you run the risk of oxidising the beer - but it is risk, not a certainty.

Huh? Are you nuts? If you "stir the beer like a man man possessed," you will DEFINITELY oxidize the beer. There's no risk there, that's how you oxidize beer.

 

[ChucknBeer]

Maybe I read this wrong, but did you add the sugar directly to the beer, without boiling it in water?

I think you infected your batch by doing it so...

 

[joshesmusica]

for clarity, i think the source of the infection came from the lid of the pot.

did you put the lid on after it had cooled? or during the boil? even hot steam from the boil should disinfect it. if it were me, i would consider other options if you had an infected batch.

 

[Likefully]

Huh? Are you nuts? If you "stir the beer like a man man possessed," you will DEFINITELY oxidize the beer. There's no risk there, that's how you oxidize beer.

No I am quite sane and sober. I don't encourage it mixing it too vigorously, but the risk of the beer oxidising from stirring it slowly is so small that it is well worth taking to ensure the priming sugar is evenly mixed across all bottles.

The risk of oxidation is much greater if you bottle your beer above 27C, which I never do.

There are other ways beer gets oxidised.

 

[kombat]

I don't encourage it mixing it too vigorously, but the risk of the beer oxidising from stirring it slowly is so small that it is well worth taking to ensure the priming sugar is evenly mixed across all bottles.

Right.

"Slowly."

That's probably not going to oxidize (note the correct spelling) your beer.

But you didn't say "slowly." You said:

If you stir the beer like a mad man possessed then you run the risk of oxidising the beer - but it is risk, not a certainty.

Possessed madmen don't stir things "slowly." They stir them wildly and vigorously, and that will definitely oxidize the beer, regardless of the temperature.

 

[choff89]

That's probably not going to oxidize (note the correct spelling)

Some people on this forum sure are obnoxious. This guy is probably from the UK, where the correct spelling is "oxidise". ****ing ignorant dickhead.

 

[kombat]

Some people on this forum sure are obnoxious. This guy is probably from the UK, where the correct spelling is "oxidise". ****ing ignorant dickhead.

Ease off the throttle there, tiger. Combined with the grammatical mistakes in his post ("but it is risk" - it is a risk), I concluded English wasn't his first language. I'd never seen that spelling before, so I Googled the definition of "oxidise" and the first entry that came up corrected the spelling to "oxidize."

Trust me, as a Canadian, I'm aware that different cultures have different nuances in spelling ("honor/honour", etc.) - but this was not one I was familiar with. I was trying to gently correct him.

It's Friday - pour yourself a beer and cool off a little, bro.

 

[blackbeer]

too lazy to read it all. what was your yeast pitch temp, fermentation temp and how long did you ferment? should be in the 60's and 3 weeks.

 

[cobrem]

One person already mentioned the overcarbonation route. Just to eliminate that as a possibility (which I agree with - 5oz is too much), pour a beer, and leave it alone for 15-20 minutes to off-gas, then try it. If that taste isn't there anymore, you found your culprit.

I have this same issue from time to time - occasional overcarbonation. Now I'm just stuck trying to figure out if I have a wild yeast problem, or if I am doing the calculators wrong :/

 

[Likefully]

Right.

"Slowly."

That's probably not going to oxidize (note the correct spelling) your beer.

But you didn't say "slowly." You said:



Possessed madmen don't stir things "slowly." They stir them wildly and vigorously, and that will definitely oxidize the beer, regardless of the temperature.

I am sure you are beautiful in every way.

Read over my posts on this thread and you will see I never encouraged mixing it like a madman. Lets just agree to disagree on the risk verse certainty thing.

I am making an issue about this point about because a lot of people on this forum believe that there is a massive risk of oxidation from gently stirring the beer to mix the sugar - which is untrue. There is hardly any risk from a gentle stir and it is well worth taking as there is a bigger risk that your sugar won't be mixed evenly if you don't stir the beer just a few times.

 

[joshesmusica]

I am sure you are beautiful in every way.



Read over my posts on this thread and you will see I never encouraged mixing it like a madman. Lets just agree to disagree on the risk verse certainty thing.



I am making an issue about this point about because a lot of people on this forum believe that there is a massive risk of oxidation from gently stirring the beer to mix the sugar - which is untrue. There is hardly any risk from a gentle stir and it is well worth taking as there is a bigger risk that your sugar won't be mixed evenly if you don't stir the beer just a few times.

If you're siphoning properly what's stirring it a few more times gently going to add when it's already been stirring gently anyways during the entire siphoning process? The issue people are taking up with your taking up an issue about our concern for oxidation is that you're encouraging bad process instead of doing yours properly. Yes the risk might be minimal to gently stir, but there shouldn't be much of a need for it anyways if you're siphoning properly. If it's not stirring sufficiently during the siphon, it's possible that your hose is too small. Mine takes maybe about five minutes to transfer (maybe ten, no idea never times it, but will now next time) and is swirling (gently stirring) the entire time. So what's a few more gentle stirs going to do for that?

 

[joshesmusica]

One person already mentioned the overcarbonation route. Just to eliminate that as a possibility (which I agree with - 5oz is too much), pour a beer, and leave it alone for 15-20 minutes to off-gas, then try it. If that taste isn't there anymore, you found your culprit.

I have this same issue from time to time - occasional overcarbonation. Now I'm just stuck trying to figure out if I have a wild yeast problem, or if I am doing the calculators wrong :/

How are you using the calculator? Even if you're using it remotely close to the way its intended, you're gonna be close enough to not overcarbonate. The only thing that could be difficult to understand is what temp to put in, but most calculators will explain whether they mean at time of bottling or lowest or highest temp during ferment.

In other words, if you are indeed using a calculator, it's unlikely that's your culprit when it comes to off flavors.

But now you've just given me an idea for another experiment to conduct: carbonation levels with the same brew.

 

[choff89]

Ok so here's an update that seems strange to me, but I'm new at this. I just found one of my "bad" beers that's been in my fridge for over a week. It's the pale ale that I bottled over 3 months ago. I poured it, drank it, and couldn't believe it was the same beer. It didn't have any sort of off flavor at all. It's a great pale ale. I opened another bottle that hasn't been chilled at all and compared them. It's a completely different beer.

So what's going on? Does chilling a home brewed beer for a week somehow help the conditioning process? Every other time I've tried this beer it's been in the fridge for a few hours to a day.

Again, thanks for all of your help. This is a great forum.

 

[hotwatermusic]

Time in the fridge helps. It helps with clarity. The yeast dropping out of suspension could potentially pull some particulates that carry an off flavor along with it. Generally it's good practice to give it some cold conditioning before you taste it. But for me it's never been night and day. Carbonation is definitely fun to play with. Also the same (carbonation) experiment conducted on different styles will yield different results.

 

[hotwatermusic]

Sorry my phone scrolled on its own and I mixed the last two replies... as you were.

 

[joshesmusica]

yeah, i agree, it's really weird for it to be night and day. so the bottle you compared it to was the same batch? or the exact same recipe from two different batches?