Beer tastes earthy

[2005STi]

Hi everyone. I'm having an issue with my hoppy beers which I use distilled water and add minerals to the strike water. All of my beers have been tasting pretty minerally/earthy and harsh. I wanted to know if I'm adding too much or too little salts to my water.

I'll use 8 gallons of distilled total for a 6 gallon post boil volume.
I'll add:

2.5 grams gypsum
2 grams NaCl
1 gram MgS04
5.5 grams CaCl

Grain bill - 70% 2 row 25% flaked oats 5% honey malt. 1.75L starter of 1318

I always purge the keg with CO2 before transferring and from the color there is no visible hint of oxidation.

 

[brownni5]

Your chloride looks really high, and maybe a bit low in your sulfates. Making some assumptions (i.e. 10 lb grist, no-sparge), you have about 160 ppm chloride and 60 ppm sulfates. For a hoppy pale beer, others have suggested chloride less than 100 and sulfates great than 100. It'll be personal preference, but you might want to start there. If you haven't already, grab a water spreadsheet like Bru'n Water from the internets and plug in your information there.

Might want to scale back on the NaCl - I don't really see the point in a pale beer, but that might be just me.

 

[mattdee1]

I prefer to keep things simple with the additions. I use Bru N Water with the following:

gypsum
CaCl
Lactic acid (88%)
baking soda

The lactic is only needed for lighter colored beers, and the baking soda is only used on darker beers, if at all. Some amount of gypsum and CaCl are in all of my beers. Seems to work great.

I should mention that I'm having a hard time believing that the salts and associated quantities you listed are the cause of your woes. If you're starting with a known blank slate of distilled water, and making adjustments at these amounts, we're talking about very subtle tweaks in the resulting beer, assuming they'd even be perceptible at all, IMO.

When you add significant quantities of hops to a beer, you're playing with a double-edged sword. There is lots of potential for greatness from all those hops, but if things go wrong, then those same hops can really drag your beer down to a disappointing level (ask me how I know).

You have to make darn sure the hops you're using are reasonably fresh, especially the later additions. Stale hops taste terrible.

Secondly, be very wary of oxidation. Not all oxidized beers undergo a drastic color change, so you can't go on that alone as an indicator of whether it has happened or not. If you're using fresh hops in large quantities and there is no pleasant aroma to be found, then that is also a hallmark of oxidation. You said you purge your kegs with CO2, which is not a bad idea, but it's not generally enough on its own. If your beer is exposed to air for any length of time - especially during transfer - then kiss those lovely hop aromas goodbye, and say hello to grassy/earthy aftertaste.

 

[HB_ATL73]

What hops are you using

 

[brownni5]

The OP also refers to the taste as "minerally" - that suggests water, though I would think the sulfates would be higher.

Brulosophy trials have suggested that waster is indeed important, and I've found that with my dry beers that are lacking in chlorides.

 

[2005STi]

How else can I avoid oxidation? I rack into a purges keg from a carboy on about day 12-14. Then I bring the keg to my kegerator and purge the remaining co2/air before setting it to about 20psi.

my hopping regime is 1.5oz total at 5 min and 1.5oz whirlpool for 20 min. 4oz dryhop at day 7.

 

[Jag75]

How else can I avoid oxidation? I rack into a purges keg from a carboy on about day 12-14. Then I bring the keg to my kegerator and purge the remaining co2/air before setting it to about 20psi.

my hopping regime is 1.5oz total at 5 min and 1.5oz whirlpool for 20 min. 4oz dryhop at day 7.

Are you doing closed transfers?

 

[2005STi]

Are you doing closed transfers?

I’m racking with an auto siphon from a carboy into a keg that was filled with co2 maybe 10 minute prior and of course letting the pressure out before starting the siphon.

Is this transfer too exposed? What could I change without getting a conical?

 

[Jag75]

You can still do closed transfers without having a conical . I used to do them in my carboys all the time . If your getting a real bad mineral taste it could be your water . Someone mentioned Bru N Water. I use it and really like it . Let me look up my IPA water build and see where it's at compared to yours.

 

[Jag75]

Ok this is my water profile for my west coast IPA using RO water with TDS less of 10ppm.

Gypsum- 5.9g in mash & 2.8g sparge
Cal chloride- .5g in mash & .3 sparge
I use 2.7 ml of lactic acid in mash and 1.5 ml in sparge . Ph of 5.3

 

[day_trippr]

I’m racking with an auto siphon from a carboy into a keg that was filled with co2 maybe 10 minute prior and of course letting the pressure out before starting the siphon.

Is this transfer too exposed? What could I change without getting a conical?

Practically speaking, you can't purge a keg by simply "filling" it with CO2 in any conventional manner - unless you started with a keg that had been totally vacuum purged first (which of course would collapse it...but I digress). @doug293cz has published a conclusive study on gas purging and it doesn't...work...well.

Look into liquid purging of your kegs - specifically the "Star San purge". And closed transfers as well - which pretty much rules out the use of an autosiphon.

All that related, I doubt it has anything to do with an "earthy" character. That's something I've associated with some noble hop strains but was never a prominent character...

Cheers!

 

[2005STi]

The hops in this beer are centennial, citra, mosaic

 

[day_trippr]

Woof. I'm enjoying an neipa thoroughly laced with those three strains (with an early touch of Columbus) and I'm pretty sure nobody on this planet would detect anything "earthy" about it.

Ok, definitely not the hops. And I'm unconvinced "earthy" is an oxidation character. So, maybe the water comments are on point?

Cheers!

 

[Vale71]

Could it be that it's the 25% oats that you're perceiving as "earthy"? 25% oats is a lot and if you put those in all your beers then there is a good chance this could be the common culprit.

 

[2005STi]

I don’t think so on the oats. I actually got 1st place for American Pale Ale in the Philadelphia region of NHC a few years ago for the same recipe. I’ve also gotten 1st for a porter and 3rd for a wit (both of those brewed with tap water carbon filtered). I haven’t changed my process for transferring into the keg at all.

 

[Bobby_M]

https://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PTRCarboyEcon

Best Practices:
Fill your clean corny keg with starsan solution. Pressurize with CO2 and purge the headspace 3 times in short bursts. Hang the racking cane into a bucket to catch the starsan. Clip the black QD onto your keg's liquid out post. Push all of the starsan out of the keg into the bucket. Disconnect the gas from the keg and pull the vent to remove most of the pressure.
Be sure the entire racking cane and underside of the carboy cap has recently been in the starsan bucket before inserting on top of your carboy.
Secure the carboy cap on top of your fermenter. Lower your CO2 regulator until the gauge reads zero. Hook up the gas line to the MFL fitting on the carboy cap.
Pull up the vent on your corny keg and turn it 90 degrees to lock it open.
Slowly increase regulator pressure while checking for liquid flow. You only need 1 PSI or so to get it to start flowing. You may need to hold one hand around the carboy cap on the initial pressurized start to keep it from popping off. Once you have flow and the siphon is running, you can lower the pressure just a touch to keep excess pressure from building in the carboy. Use good judgement and don't do anything that would allow more than 1psi to build in a glass carboy.

 

[HB_ATL73]

How else can I avoid oxidation?

Doesn't seem like many (majority of) people practice this but I've been recently kegging with SG points remaining (spunding) OR priming and naturally carbonating.

So far this has all but eliminated oxidation of my beers as the yeast do a great job of eating up any O2 ingress.

Takes a little bit more patience to wait for the keg to carb but its worth it.

 

[mattdee1]

Ok, definitely not the hops. And I'm unconvinced "earthy" is an oxidation character. So, maybe the water comments are on point?

I agree the link between oxidation and the descriptor "earthy" is tenuous at best, but the problem with this sort of subjective thing is that describing what things taste like is difficult and not remotely standardized. I know I suck at it; not sure about OP.

I immediately thought of oxidation due to personal experience. When you load up on hops and then allow all the delicate aromas to get obliterated by oxygen, what gets left behind is an unpleasant, almost dirt-like taste. At least, that is how I would describe it, because I can't think of a better descriptor. In fact, I experienced this last night on a beer that contained a pound of citra in 5 gallons, that my friend had unwittingly oxidized, presumably with less-than-stellar post fermentation handling. I mean, this beer is only a few weeks old but the aroma from 16oz of citra was nowhere to be found, but the dirt-like taste was present and accounted for.

I’ve also gotten 1st for a porter and 3rd for a wit (both of those brewed with tap water carbon filtered). I haven’t changed my process for transferring into the keg at all.

I don't doubt that, and it fits perfectly.

Porters and wits are typically not judged with hop aroma and flavor being the primary criteria of interest. I think all beers benefit to some extent from oxygen avoidance, but porters and wits will be far, far more forgiving to oxygen exposure than a hoppy pale ale or IPA. You know how you can buy those herbicides that selectively attack certain types of weeds in your lawn? Oxygen is that herbicide and hops are the target. Ok, that's a sloppy analogy but I find it almost helps to think of it that way.

Definitely ditch the autosiphon transfer method, at least for hoppy beers. The technique posted above is a great example of one approach to so-called "closed transfer" from fermentor to keg. There are other ways, and the process can be adapted to different types of fermentors, etc. There is lots of info out on the internet on this subject. Having spent a lot of time scratching my head trying to figure out why all of my beers were turning out great except for hoppy ones, I finally delved into the oxygen stuff and the results have improved by leaps and bounds.

 

[yowzers]

I think I would simplify it somewhat and remove the NaCl and cut the CaCl in half. Add a touch for Sulfate.

 

[2005STi]

So I’m thinking now about fermenting in a corny keg with a cut dip tube. Then pushing it to another keg at the end of fermentation with co2. And I’ll try this star San purge you guys are talking about for the serving keg. Thoughts?

 

[mattdee1]

So I’m thinking now about fermenting in a corny keg with a cut dip tube. Then pushing it to another keg at the end of fermentation with co2. And I’ll try this star San purge you guys are talking about for the serving keg. Thoughts?

That's definitely one way of doing it. Never tried it myself, but I know lots of people do that and like it.

If you do decide to ferment in your keg, it provides a pretty convenient way of purging the serving keg. You can use fermentation CO2 to purge the serving keg, instead of doing the star san purge. To do this:

- clean and sanitize serving keg
- install and seal lid
- attach "jumper" tube between fermentation keg gas post and serving keg liquid post
- attach short "pigtail" tube from serving keg gas post to a jar of star san

So the way this works is, the beer ferments inside the keg, CO2 is generated, that CO2 flows out of the fermenting keg gas post, through the jumper tube, into serving keg liquid post, where it comes out at the bottom of the serving keg dip tube. As fermentation progresses, a steady stream of CO2 trickles into the serving keg, diluting the oxygen inside that keg down to miniscule levels.

There is a ton of CO2 generated during fermentation, probably enough to purge the serving keg several times over.

When fermentation is done, boom, you've got a clean serving keg filled with almost pure CO2, ready to go.

Assuming you have the kegs available and all the fittings you need, etc. this is a very good method, IMO. The only downside I see is that a 5gal corny keg as a fermentor will not accommodate as big a final batch as a bucket or carboy would; whether or not that's a problem is for you to decide.

 

[2005STi]

By the way, huge thanks to all you guys for taking your time to try and help me!

 

[Jag75]

By the way, huge thanks to all you guys for taking your time to try and help me!

That's what I love about this forum.

 

[LittleRiver]

... @doug293cz has published a conclusive study on gas purging and it doesn't...work...well.

I'm familiar with this post, where @doug293cz calculates that fermentation gas keg purging results in an O2 concentration of 5 parts per billion by volume. If I'm not mistaken, that's less than the concentration of O2 that is acceptable in bottled CO2.

It could be that I am mistaken. Or it could be that I have missed some things that prove the situation to be otherwise. If so, please provide some links so I can convert my ignorance into enlightenment.

I started out purging Starsan filled kegs with bottled CO2, it just seemed "right" that it would work best. Then I tried sanitizing a keg with a couple of cups of Starsan, pouring it out, then letting the yeast purge the keg with fermentation gas. I don't have any measurements to back up my observations, but what I found was that fermentation gas purging works, and works very well.

I haven't had a keg of beer last for more than two months, but in that duration there have been no noticeable problems with oxidation (including some hoppy IPA's). I have not been able to tell a difference between Starsan filled kegs purged with bottled gas vs kegs purged with only fermentation gas.

Fermentation gas purging is working so well that I don't see a need to do it any other way.

 

[day_trippr]

In this particular thread, there was no hooking-up to an active fermentor. Hence, that's the wrong @doug293cz reference

I was referring to using bottled gas to purge a vessel as was attempted by the OP.
iirc, it took a crazy number of purge cycles to be effective - I want to write something like "30" but I can't recall that accurately...

Cheers!

 

[doug293cz]

In this particular thread, there was no hooking-up to an active fermentor. Hence, that's the wrong @doug293cz reference

I was referring to using bottled gas to purge a vessel as was attempted by the OP.
iirc, it took a crazy number of purge cycles to be effective - I want to write something like "30" but I can't recall that accurately...

Cheers!

It’s something like 12 - 13 purges at 30 psi to get the headspace under 100 ppl O2.

Brew on

 

[yowzers]

If you’re going to ferment in a keg, the floating dip tubes are a cool addition. There are some out there for less than $20 now

 

[balrog]

It’s something like 12 - 13 purges at 30 psi to get the headspace under 100 ppl O2.

Brew on

And that's headspace, I believe, and not an empty keg.

 

[basement]

A few months ago I was experiencing a very similiar flavor that you describe... minerally/earthy with astringent harshness. I went through all the troubleshooting with water (distilled and salts), oxidation, hops, yeast, grain freshness, ph throughout the entire process. In the end it was stubborn wild yeast somewhere in the fermenter (unitank). After boiling everything I could and using idophor my beers went back to normal. It was very confusing as it didn't fit the normal infection profile. Something else to consider...

 

[doug293cz]

And that's headspace, I believe, and not an empty keg.

It’s independent of volume. So, headspace vs. entire keg take the same number of purges to get to the same O2 ppm/ppb. Just takes a whole lot more CO2 to purge an empty keg. That’s why liquid purging is so efficient.

Brew on

 

[balrog]

It’s independent of volume. So, headspace vs. entire keg take the same number of purges to get to the same O2 ppm/ppb. Just takes a whole lot more CO2 to purge an empty keg. That’s why liquid purging is so efficient.

Good to know it is independent of volume.

 

[Horseflesh]

If you could say it is “musty” or like damp earth, it might be 2,4,6-tricholoroanisole (TCA) from mold contamination.

With it being described as “mineral” I doubt this is the case, but...

 

[2005STi]

So yesterday I rebrewed the recipe from my original post. I changed the hop varieties completely FWIW.

I used distilled water and per Bru'n water I treated my strike water with 1g Gypsum, 1g CaCl, and 1.4g MgSO4. Sparge water with 1.4/1.4/1.9 respectively.
I added 6oz of acidulated malt to the grain bill to give me an estimated Mash PH of 5.27
I am currently fermenting in a pin lock corny with 2" cut off of the dip tube. I removed the gas out and zip tie secured a piece of 1/2" ID tubing to the threads for my blow off.
I made a 1.75L starter of 1318 the day before w/pure o2. Pitched at 68F with pure o2 and the fermentation is being controlled with a mini fridge/heat blanket with an Inkbird controller.

I'll utilize the star san purge of the serving keg before doing a closed c02 transfer in about 12 days. Will try to be good about posting results.

 

[2005STi]

Hello all,

So when I am ready to perform the closed transfer, should I be worried about picking up hop particles and clogging the dip tube? I cut a solid 2" off of the dip tube.

I plan on dry hopping with 3 oz in the keg (primary fermentor). Should I cold crash before transferring to the serving keg? If so, should I close up the primary keg and pressurize it with say 15psi before crashing? I'd rather avoid cold crashing as I am worried about the pressure dropping as the primary gets cold, weakening the seal on the lid, and somehow pulling in air.

Maybe overkill but I'm trying to be EXTRA EXTRA careful here to isolate my problem which is likely oxidation.

 

[Jag75]

If your fermenting in a keg I would drop the temp to keg serving temp . Mine is set at 37. You can put your dry hops in , purge a handful of times then. 5 psi should be fine. Then wait 3 -5 days fill up your receiving keg with star san , push out with co2 , hook up a jumper from fermenter keg ( black to black ) to serving keg then transfer by re attaching the gas to the fermenter keg

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Hello all,

So when I am ready to perform the closed transfer, should I be worried about picking up hop particles and clogging the dip tube? I cut a solid 2" off of the dip tube.

I plan on dry hopping with 3 oz in the keg (primary fermentor). Should I cold crash before transferring to the serving keg? If so, should I close up the primary keg and pressurize it with say 15psi before crashing? I'd rather avoid cold crashing as I am worried about the pressure dropping as the primary gets cold, weakening the seal on the lid, and somehow pulling in air.

Maybe overkill but I'm trying to be EXTRA EXTRA careful here to isolate my problem which is likely oxidation.

Yeah, you should be worried about the hop particles clogging your dip tube even with it shortened. Hops drop but can still be sucked back up. The best ways to mitigate that would be a pretty long cold crash, bagging your hops, or putting some kind of filter around the dip tube like one of those metal hop canisters.

 

[doug293cz]

Hello all,

So when I am ready to perform the closed transfer, should I be worried about picking up hop particles and clogging the dip tube? I cut a solid 2" off of the dip tube.

I plan on dry hopping with 3 oz in the keg (primary fermentor). Should I cold crash before transferring to the serving keg? If so, should I close up the primary keg and pressurize it with say 15psi before crashing? I'd rather avoid cold crashing as I am worried about the pressure dropping as the primary gets cold, weakening the seal on the lid, and somehow pulling in air.

Maybe overkill but I'm trying to be EXTRA EXTRA careful here to isolate my problem which is likely oxidation.

If cold crashing in a keg, leave the CO2 pressure once you start crashing. If you disconnect the pressure, then the pressure will drop significantly as CO2 is absorbed into the colder beer. You can easily end up with a partial vacuum in the keg, if you don't leave the CO2 on.

Brew on

 

[2005STi]

UPDATE - I actually decided to serve in the primary after reading about the success people have had. I like the impossibility of any o2 pick up at all.

I've closed up the fermenter at 1.020 and dry hopped. I'm purging every few hours and a lot of gas/pressure is coming out. I expect the gravity to be near terminal but I'd rather not open the keg to pull a sample. I don't want to pull a sample from the post because I haven't crashed yet and want to give myself the best chance of not clogging the dip tube.

How do you guys know when to begin crashing when gas is being released and fermentation activity is still clearly happening? I'm sure in my previous beers in carboys with airlocks there was still gas escaping when i went to keg. I just want to be sure that I'm not crashing too soon OR venting all of the good DH aroma out unnecessarily.

 

[2005STi]

UPDATE -

I dry hopped at 1.020 on day 4 (3.5 ounces 2.5 Simcoe, 1 Summit).
On day 7 I dropped the temp on my fridge from a d-rest of 72 down to fridge temp of 40deg. I also hooked up the co2 and set it to 10psi. It probably took 36 hours to get down as it's just a dorm fridge with the freezer cooling element. The dip tube did get clogged after a few pints. I modified an extra beer QD to let me blow c02 down the dip tube to dislodge the clog, it worked! (I use pin lock kegs).

The beer has been conditioning for 4 days now and I'll say it's probably the best tasting/aromatic IPA I've made in 7 years of brewing. The hop character is finally resembling prof. examples of IPAs. The malt character too is now tasting properly now that I am not mixing it up with the beginnings of oxidation.

I am 100% converted to fermenting/serving in the same keg, at least for hoppy beers. And I have a top draw dip tube arriving tomorrow. You guys have seriously reinvigorated my passion for brewing. I had gotten so discouraged by not being able to successfully brew my favorite style of beer to drink! Thank you all so much!!

 

[mattdee1]

UPDATE -

I dry hopped at 1.020 on day 4 (3.5 ounces 2.5 Simcoe, 1 Summit).
On day 7 I dropped the temp on my fridge from a d-rest of 72 down to fridge temp of 40deg. I also hooked up the co2 and set it to 10psi. It probably took 36 hours to get down as it's just a dorm fridge with the freezer cooling element. The dip tube did get clogged after a few pints. I modified an extra beer QD to let me blow c02 down the dip tube to dislodge the clog, it worked! (I use pin lock kegs).

The beer has been conditioning for 4 days now and I'll say it's probably the best tasting/aromatic IPA I've made in 7 years of brewing. The hop character is finally resembling prof. examples of IPAs. The malt character too is now tasting properly now that I am not mixing it up with the beginnings of oxidation.

I am 100% converted to fermenting/serving in the same keg, at least for hoppy beers. And I have a top draw dip tube arriving tomorrow. You guys have seriously reinvigorated my passion for brewing. I had gotten so discouraged by not being able to successfully brew my favorite style of beer to drink! Thank you all so much!!

Outstanding! Thanks for sharing a play-by-play.

And I know exactly what you mean by "reinvigorated passion." Having semi-recently seen the benefits of oxygen avoidance on hoppy beers myself, I too went through a major spike in enthusiasm for the last few months. So many things I want to try now.