Beer oxidized?

[lilbova3]

Pre-bottling my beer has the exact SRM I want and tastes pretty good. Post bottle conditioning my beer is darker and lacks the hop flavor and aroma (mostly do IPAs).

My two recent batches have been this way. I dry hopped with whole cone hops. The hops were a little old so they could have been oxidized, probably not stored the best either as they were not in the freezer. I'm hoping this is the case so I don't see it again. I'm getting ready to bottle a Maine Beer Lunch clone and would hate to see this another time.

Cleaning and sanitation is pretty sound I feel. Aerate by shaking. Adjust water with salts. Pitch plenty of yeast via Mr. Malty recommendations. Bottle with bottling wand and fill bottles to the top and then remove the wand.

I can't figure out what's up. Any ideas?

Thanks.

 

[j1n]

How old and how did you store them?

 

[lilbova3]

Probably 2.5 to 3 months. Stored in a cupboard at room temp, I now know that's awful. Have started storing everything in the freezer now.

 

[m00ps]

I would guess its in your bottling process. Do you have the siphon going all the way to the bottom of the bottling bucket? and be sure to keep a lid on it during the bottling process to minimize oxygen exposure. Also make sure there is no bubbles from air being drawn into the siphon hiose

 

[Pelican521]

I experienced the same color issues as you with my IPAs along with a muted (almost earthy) hop flavor. Pretty much all my IPAs would taste the same no matter which hop combination I used. I've had several threads on here discussing this exact problem...

Two things greatly improved my IPAs. One is not transferring to a secondary, which reduces the chance of oxidation. The other was investing in a kegging system, where you can purge out the oxygen with Co2 before you rack.

Now my beers are exactly the same color a month after I keg them and they actually taste great. Also, not having to bottle (and secondary) is a huge time saver!

Anyway, hope this helps.

 

[lilbova3]

I do have tube at the bottom of bottling bucket. Isn't it almost impossible to not get a few bubbles at the beginning and end of siphoning or is there a technique out there I don't know. Also using a wand creates a few bubbles but I've heard not enough to oxidize.

 

[jeremy0209]

The problem might also not be oxidation; it might be sanitation.

I, like you, have always had sound sanitation practices, but I got burned by a 3 piece spigot. They're not supposed to let anything in between the two main parts, but they do. They also don't come apart unless you run them under hot water and force them apart, which means that they're not supposed to have to be disassembled to be cleaned......but liquid does get in there and they do harbor bacteria. If this sounds familiar, get a two piece spigot and watch your problem disappear.

This is what I'm talking about. https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=11483.0

 

[lilbova3]

I have a two piece spigot right now from Midwest Supplies. Maybe I need to clean that baby out a little more. I always clean with Oxyclean and let it run through the spigot for a good 30 seconds.

But is there a way to get no bubbles when auto siphoning. Any techniques?

 

[jeremy0209]

I have a two piece spigot right now from Midwest Supplies. Maybe I need to clean that baby out a little more. I always clean with Oxyclean and let it run through the spigot for a good 30 seconds.

But is there a way to get no bubbles when auto siphoning. Any techniques?

Well, here's a thought....I just replaced an auto-siphon because it had a small crack in it that was letting in air. I didn't notice any oxidation in the beer, but I could see tiny bubbles every time I siphoned.

 

[lilbova3]

I'll give everything a good wash and change out my tubing for the auto siphon. I don't have a LHBS to readily get a new auto siphon.

 

[Yooper]

I'll give everything a good wash and change out my tubing for the auto siphon. I don't have a LHBS to readily get a new auto siphon.

It does sound like oxidation. A three month old IPA is pretty aged as it is, so it would lose hops flavor and aroma, but if it's darkening as well that is a classic sign of oxidation.

In early stages, oxidation presents as a bit of a "flat" or "lifeless" taste, then progresses to stale. From there, it may start to darken, and when it gets older the flavor may change to "brandy"like, or like sherry. Once it's really bad, then the classic "wet cardboard" taste comes along.

It's possible that your hops were poor (and it does sounds like that), but it also sounds like the beer itself was showing signs of oxidation.

I've been a beer judge for a while, and one of the most common flaws I taste in homebrew is oxidation. Many people will tell you that you have to really be sloppy with your beer to get oxidation, but that's simply not true. Oxygen can even permeate silicone or rubber carboy stoppers. It usually isn't terrible in a young beer, and in older beers like barley wines, it brings a nice sweet sherry note to the beer. But it is often present, if not severe, even in well made homebrews due to things like storage conditions, the bottling process, etc.

Kegging makes it a bit easier to avoid signs of oxidation, as the beer can be pushed via co2 to the keg or bottle and avoiding contact with the environment. For most brewers who bottle, just being mindful of the risk and taking steps to avoid oxidation is enough to make the beer not exhibit overt signs of oxidation until it's older and past its peak anyway.

 

[lilbova3]

Yooper, the beer wasn't three months old but the hops were that I dry hopped with. Whole hops as well.

 

[blizz81]

I experienced the same color issues as you with my IPAs along with a muted (almost earthy) hop flavor. Pretty much all my IPAs would taste the same no matter which hop combination I used. I've had several threads on here discussing this exact problem...

I've been in this boat more often than not on IPAs. Although I don't know if I'd say "earthy", but different hops mute to the same kind of weird almost-cloying kind of flavor, and darker color.


However, I've had two or three batches that have turned out entirely fine with the same processes/equipment* with hop flavors that pop...and even in my latest batch, first one I opened about 1.5 weeks after bottling seemed darker and tasted hop-muddy like my previous Pliny clone. Second bottle I opened about a week later? Perfick. No problems with the siphon upon bottling (usually I'll label the first bottle as that's the only one that gets any noticeable air flow in it, rest have been quiet for a while & tube full to the tip of the racking cane). Thinking it has to be oxidation but still a bit miffed. Only really notice it in very hoppy beers - have brewed other pale beers that keep for 6+ months without any discernible off-flavors or color darkening...some minor oxidation as they get really old (flavor just doesn't pop as much as initially, but still good).


*the only real differences I can think of would be 1) I may not have cold-crashed all batches and 2) all are fermented in carboys and never racked until bottling, but I suppose some could have different headspace? My beers always seem to sit and outgas all the way up to bottling day, and I definitely do not rush these through fermentation

 

[lilbova3]

I'm not rushing the beer. Let it go 2 weeks primary plus dry hop. So looking at 2.5 weeks or so.

I haven't had this issue before with some IPAs so I'm starting to think its the dry hops I used or maybe an infection. Will probably change out tubing and give everything a thorough cleaning before my next bottling.

I also make small batches, only 2.5 gallon packaged. The headspace in the carboy shouldn't be an issue right? I believe the last two times I brewed and did a FG check I did put the beer back into the fermenter with a wine thief. Probably won't do that this time. I think I'll do only one FG check from now on at bottling. Since I leave in the fermenter for 2+ weeks I'm not worried about the beer reaching FG.

 

[Yooper]

Yooper, the beer wasn't three months old but the hops were that I dry hopped with. Whole hops as well.

Well, hops are only harvested once per year, so that they were a year old as all of mine are- but I assume you meant that they were opened and kept around for three months?

 

[lilbova3]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1441314246.540660.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1441314267.683551.jpg
This is my beer now after 1.5 weeks in carboy. SRM is suppose to be around 5-6 via Bru'N. Looks darker to me, personally.

Yooper, sorry I wasn't clear, the hops I used for previous two batches I'm speaking of had not been open. They were sitting at room temp for a couple months though.

 

[Yooper]

How long are you keeping the beer in the fermenter? That's a LOT of headspace- not a problem during active fermentation but certainly an issue once fermentation slows/stops. If it's a very short term, and the carboy is never opened, it'll be ok though. Opening it often for readings, adding dryhops, etc, means a ton of oxygen entering the headspace though.

 

[lilbova3]

I only do small batches because I can't drink 50 beers quick enough and my equipment won't allow bigger batches. I keep the beer in there for 2 weeks usually and open to take a FG reading, which I think I'm going to stop doing, and to add dry hops. Not taking an FG isn't a great practice but I assume a beer will be finished in 2 weeks if the right yeast is pitched.

Is 2 weeks too long with that much head space even if I never open the fermenter?

 

[m00ps]

if you never open the fermentor headspace isnt really an issue. itll be fillled with CO2 until you open it up

 

[lilbova3]

I can't purge with CO2. So maybe open to add dry hop and dry hop for one day?

 

[55x11]

I only do small batches because I can't drink 50 beers quick enough and my equipment won't allow bigger batches. I keep the beer in there for 2 weeks usually and open to take a FG reading, which I think I'm going to stop doing, and to add dry hops. Not taking an FG isn't a great practice but I assume a beer will be finished in 2 weeks if the right yeast is pitched.

Is 2 weeks too long with that much head space even if I never open the fermenter?

I would invest into 3-gallon PTE carboy if you keep doing 2.5 Gallon batches. Headspace may be oxidation risk.

 

[charles]

Yooper, I have been brewing beer for about 5 years. I have a 5 gallon batches of an ipa. Used both fresh cones hops and some pellitized hops as well. For the first time I transferred it to a pet secondary. 1) should I have oxidation if I transfer back to my primary for bottling? 2) will it slow oxidation when I put the bottles in the fridge? I usually sample one after about a week or so and when I get the taste I like best it goes to fridge.

 

[lilbova3]

Added dry hops yesterday. Going to only dry hop for a day at a higher temp (72*). Will bottle today and hopefully limit any possibility of oxidation. If this batch turns out bad I'll assume I'm picking up something unwanted in my equipment.

 

[lilbova3]

Beware of long post...

Only after a week of conditioning I had to try a beer. I know it's super early but I had to. So I put one in the fridge on the seventh day and let it sit for two days. Attached is a picture of pre-bottled beer and post-bottled beer.

On first pour beer smelled pretty darn good and tasted pretty darn good. But that quickly faded to just a cloying sweetness after about 10 minutes. I'm still not sure what could be causing this.

Here's my recipe:
BIAB
Batch Size: 2.5 gallons
OG: 1.059
FG: 1.006
ABV: 7%
IBU: 70
SRM: 6.1

3272 g 2 Row92%7.2 lbs
40 g Caramel 40 1.1%.08 lbs
40 g Caramel 10 1.1%.08 lbs
40 g Carapils 1.1%.08 lbs
50 g Corn Sugar 1.4%

Gypsum: 8.3 grams
Epsom Salt: .5 grams
Calcium Chloride: 1.9 grams
Lactic Acid: 1.2 mL
Estimated SRM: 5.0 via Bru’N
Estimated mash pH: 5.3

Ca: 128
Mg: 4
Na: 23
SO4: 275
Cl: 65

Kept mash temp between 148-151.

.25 ozWarrior 16.5 AA%FWH 31 IBU
.2 ozSimcoe 11.1 AA%15 min 8 IBU
.4 ozCentennial 8.7 AA%15 min12 IBU
.4 ozAmarillo 8 AA% 15 min11 IBU
.8 ozSimcoe 11.1 AA% 0 min steep for 30 min before cooling
1 ozCentennial 8.7 AA%0 min steep for 30 min before cooling
1 ozAmarillo 8 AA% 0 min steep for 30 min before cooling
.6 ozSimcoeDry Hop 2 days
.7 oz CentennialDry Hop 2 days
.65 ozAmarillo Dry Hop 2 days
ALL HOPS USED WERE IN PELLET FORM
American Ale yeast slurry about 80 ml

A couple of things about the beer itself and a couple of things I did differently with this brew in hopes of it turning out great:
1. First off my OG: 1.06 and my FG: 1.011. So a little off but not bad. This could be some of the sweetness I get.
2. Almost 50% of my mash water I grabbed from my fridge filter that I drink my water from. Have never done that before.
3. Used a lot of gypsum to get sulfate super high. Not only do I like my IPAs to finish dry from a low mash but I wanted to try a high sulfate and see what that did.
4. Used the smallest amount of crystal malt I've ever used. And it still came out sweet. I'm thinking of getting rid of all crystal malt in my next brew and seeing how that goes.
5. Made sure I had a nice rolling boil while wort was in the kettle instead of a vigorous one. To hopefully help with milliard reaction and browning of wort.
6. Bought new tubing for my auto-siphon.
7. After filling bottles with bottle wand, I laid a cap on top of them while I filled the rest and capped all beer once I was done.

I am bottle conditioning in my house which during this time is staying between 74*-79*. With all that being said the beer loses hop aroma and flavor quickly and turns cloying.

We do have chloramine in our water so maybe next brew I'll try all distilled or RO water and try to go from there. Even though I won't really know how to build my water profile from those. I do not have any campden tablets for the chloramine in the mash. Maybe I can find some ASAP.

Any suggestions or ideas?