Beer is thinner after switching to 10 gallon batches. ???

[slayer021175666]

Hello everyone.
After switching to 10 gallon batches from 5 gallon batches and of course, building a whole new brewing setup for it, my American wheat seems thin. It's higher in alcohol I think and it's causing it to have a thinner mouthfeel. (Again, I THINK. I'm not certain this is the cause.) All I did was double the ingredients but, I'm wondering if I should change the 153 mash temp to 154 or if doubling the ingredients is not the proper way to upscale the recipe or what? I do believe my efficiency has went way up since building the new 10 gallon brewery but, I don't know how you check brewing efficiency for sure. I base my recipes on 75% but, I think I'm getting more than that out of the grain.
Anybody got any ideas what's going on or what I should do to get the maltier taste and thicker mouthfeel feel back in it?
Thanks.

 

[day_trippr]

How are you sparging? Batch, fly, or no - and is that different from your previous brewing setup?
Also, if fly sparging, do you heat up to mashout temperature before sparging?
Finally, are you using the same mash temperature monitoring now as before?

All else equal I would suspect your mash temperature profile is lower and/or longer than with your previous brewing setup. As you know, up to a point a lower mash temperature will tend toward higher conversion, and a prolonged fly sparge without a mashout essentially prolongs the mash and usually you can expect to drop some gravity as a result as well.

And if you're using a different method/equipment to monitor mash temperature you might want to make sure it's correlated to a known good thermometer

Cheers!

 

[slayer021175666]

I'm mashing and fly sparging. The same way I've always done it. I don't know how I would bring up the mash temp to a mash out temp because I'm using a plastic cooler. All I do is, heat up my sparge water to about 168 to 170 before I start fly sparging. Maybe it is prolonging the mash but, it's the way that I've always done it.
I do have a new thermometer from ink bird. Maybe I should see if it and the old thermometer are registering the same temp.
Did you make a mistake when you said that longer mashing time would drop points of gravity? It seems like it would make more conversion and therefore higher points of gravity.
Thank you, day_trippr.

 

[day_trippr]

Yeah, that was badly worded. I meant to convey the effect of a prolonged runout on final gravity caused by more fermentable wort, not on the original gravity being lower. Now that you are mashing twice the volume, unless you run out at twice the rate, it will take twice as long and the second half will have been sitting at conversion temp the whole time...

Cheers!

 

[mattd2]

...prolonged runout on final gravity caused by more fermentable wort, not on the original gravity being lower.

Which the higher abv of the final beer would also support that you are getting a more fermentable wort after switchingto 10G batchs.

(Been a while since I brewed so maybe wait for confirmation of my suggestions, but) you could try increase the temperature of the sparge water since sparging with 170 water will never heat the mash to a mash out temp as it will equalise somewhere between the temp of your sparge water (168-170) and the wet grains (153). If worried about tannins then aim to keep your mash pH around 5.5 during sparging (maybe needing to acidify your sparge water if needed).

Also do you wait to collect all the running before starting to heating the kettle? If you can start heating the first running immediately to stop any enzyme activity making the wort collected in you kettle more fermentable while you are waiting on your sparge.

(But can someone else please confirm if either of these are good or bad ideas!)

 

[day_trippr]

Easy one first: if one waits until the entire pre-boil volume is in the kettle before applying heat towards the boil, that just amplifies the effect of letting wort sit at saccharification temperature - now affecting the entire volume to some degree (no pun intended).

As for hotter sparge, in a classic fly sparge one gently adds the liquor to the top of the tun while drawing wort from the bottom. The immediate implication is a large portion of the total runnings will be at the original mash temperature plus a rising differential as more of the "mash wort" is drawn and the hotter sparage liquor works its way down.

That is significantly different from performing an actual mash out where the entire mash is raised out of the sacc temp range before running off, so one should not expect to see a significant change in outcome...

Cheers!

 

[slayer021175666]

Since putting the new system together, I have not been heating my boil kettle as the work flowed in because I needed to know if I was hitting my volumes correctly and I wanted to avoid the expansion of the work so I could better tell how much actually ran off. Here lately though, I'm hitting my volume the way that I should be and I plan on preheating the runoff as it comes into the kettle just as soon as it covers my electric element.
Tell me what exactly I should do. Like, should I install an element in the mash tun? And how do you keep from burning it or toasting it and giving it off flavors? Burning the grain with the heating element, I mean. And, if that's not what I should do, just tell me what exactly TO do.
Thank you

 

[day_trippr]

I would not overly worry about the volume difference between mashing temperature and somewhere between there and boiling when it comes to collecting your preboil volume. Fire up the kettle as soon as once you have a couple of inches of wort in it and just keep an eye on things as you continue your run out. Assuming you're using a sight gauge or a measuring stick, go until you hit your preboil volume mark and you should be good to go.

I do 10 gallon batches, usually collecting 13 gallons preboil to put 11 gallons in the fermentors and using Beersmith to do all the math I typically end up with exactly 10 gallons in the kegs...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

Anybody got any ideas what's going on or what I should do to get the maltier taste and thicker mouthfeel feel back in it?

You could slowly heat your mash tun directly (on medium heat) while constantly stirring the mash and scraping the bottom, to prevent scorching. Best if the mash tun has a thick tri-clad bottom, which will help prevent or at least reduce scorching.
I do decoctions that way, alas the decoction volume is much smaller than 8-12 gallons, about 1/3 to 1/2 of that.

I have (directly) heated & stirred mashes as large as 20 gallons to mashout temps, it's doable, but pretty hard work. 8-12 gallon (which will be around your mash volume) is a lot easier.

A RIMS (or HERMS) could heat up the mash to mashout temps by heating recirculating wort. All before sparging, of course.

 

[day_trippr]

You could slowly heat your mash tun directly

I believe the OP is using a cooler mash tun...

 

[bracconiere]

when you doubled the recipe did you do it by % points? or by weight?

just curious...

 

[Bobby_M]

I think the right answer was the extended fly sparge without a previous mash out. Sparge with hotter water, near 180F and get the runoff wort on the boil ASAP. In other words, fire the boil as soon as there's some wort in there.

 

[bracconiere]

I think the right answer was the extended fly sparge without a previous mash out. Sparge with hotter water, near 180F and get the runoff wort on the boil ASAP. In other words, fire the boil as soon as there's some wort in there.

180f? i'm waiting for the follow up question yeasty flavors.....

(spoiler tannins)

 

[mattd2]

180f? i'm waiting for the follow up question yeasty flavors.....

(spoiler tannins)

That's 180f sparge water, once mixed with the 153f mash it should drop below 170f in the mash. Also my understanding is tannin extraction is likely when both the temperature is above 170f and the mash pH is above 5.8 - which shouldn't (hopefully) be an issue unless you are over-sparging and your run-off gets to weak.

 

[MicroMickey]

You could slowly heat your mash tun directly (on medium heat) while constantly stirring the mash and scraping the bottom, to prevent scorching. Best if the mash tun has a thick tri-clad bottom, which will help prevent or at least reduce scorching.
I do decoctions that way, alas the decoction volume is much smaller than 8-12 gallons, about 1/3 to 1/2 of that.

I have (directly) heated & stirred mashes as large as 20 gallons to mashout temps, it's doable, but pretty hard work. 8-12 gallon (which will be around your mash volume) is a lot easier.

A RIMS (or HERMS) could heat up the mash to mashout temps by heating recirculating wort. All before sparging, of course.

Step Mashing

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crescentcitybrewtalk.com

 

[slayer021175666]

It makes me wonder if I should just batch sparge. I've always taken that to be kind of a lazy way to sparge but maybe it's what I need to get my efficiency back down to make the beer taste right. Thoughts?

 

[bracconiere]

It makes me wonder if I should just batch sparge. I've always taken that to be kind of a lazy way to sparge but maybe it's what I need to get my efficiency back down to make the beer taste right. Thoughts?

i agree with the laziness part, but hell what's a test batch to find out?

 

[bracconiere]

That's 180f sparge water, once mixed with the 153f mash it should drop below 170f in the mash.

i'd think that would only work if batch sparging? fly sparging, the 180f water would be sitting on top and slowly going down, wouldn't it be?

 

[Deadalus]

You could do a single infusion with a mash out step. That would get your mash temp up to 168 for 10 minutes. In Beersmith, you would use single infusion,+(light, medium, or full) body for the mash. There is a small volume of water near boiling added to step up the temperature. Beersmith's mash profile for single infusion,+(light, medium, or full) body +batch sparge eliminates that last step. Probably due to the reasoning suggested above, it's a quicker sparge. You could also do the first one without the batch sparge and subtract the near boiling volume from the sparge volume the recipe calculates and do a batch sparge if you found you were still getting thinner beers. I don't think that would happen though as you are adding a large volume of sparge water at 170 to whatever temperature your mash is at which since it is full volume will increase the temperature.

Other software more than likely has similar mash profiles. You just need to find the one that recognizes you don't have a RIMS-HERMS and you can't direct fire the MT and don't pick a no mash out mash profile.

 

[day_trippr]

fly sparging, the 180f water would be sitting on top and slowly going down, wouldn't it be?

As I described earlier.
If that was sufficient there would never have been a reason to come up with a mashout step...

Cheers!

 

[BrewZer]

i agree with the laziness part, but hell what's a test batch to find out?

Laziness? That's what BIAB is all about. No sparging. It's as easy as making a cup of tea... an 8 gallon cup of tea that you let steep for an hour at 152°.

 

[bracconiere]

It's as easy as making a cup of tea...

i try to tell commoners that in those exact words... of course just like tea there is a curing proccess involved...

 

[Deadalus]

i

You could do a single infusion with a mash out step. That would get your mash temp up to 168 for 10 minutes. In Beersmith, you would use single infusion,+(light, medium, or full) body for the mash. There is a small volume of water near boiling added to step up the temperature. Beersmith's mash profile for single infusion,+(light, medium, or full) body +batch sparge eliminates that last step. Probably due to the reasoning suggested above, it's a quicker sparge. You could also do the first one without the batch sparge and subtract the near boiling volume from the sparge volume the recipe calculates and do a batch sparge if you found you were still getting thinner beers. I don't think that would happen though as you are adding a large volume of sparge water at 170 to whatever temperature your mash is at which since it is full volume will increase the temperature.

Other software more than likely has similar mash profiles. You just need to find the one that recognizes you don't have a RIMS-HERMS and you can't direct fire the MT and don't pick a no mash out mash profile.

Something I'd add here is that whatever software you use to calculate may not properly account for heat loss from the MT. So if your mash temp drops "significantly", you may not hit the mash out temp when you add that infusion of water. Add a fudge factor of extra water in and subtract it from your sparge volume, something easy like a pint or a quart. Add in the correct volume to mash out and keep the rest handy in case you need it and if you don't, just pour it back into your HLT or MT.

 

[slayer021175666]

I think I'll just keep it simple next time. Double the flow of the sparge so that it equals the same 45 minute time that it was doing in the 5 gallon recipe. Then, start boiling the wort as soon as the element is covered in the keggle to further impede the mashing process.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

Take multiple readings with your thermometer in the mash tun. You may be getting a localized reading that's not representative of the average temp.

 

[WesBrew]

How are you sparging? Batch, fly, or no - and is that different from your previous brewing setup?
Also, if fly sparging, do you heat up to mashout temperature before sparging?
Finally, are you using the same mash temperature monitoring now as before?

All else equal I would suspect your mash temperature profile is lower and/or longer than with your previous brewing setup. As you know, up to a point a lower mash temperature will tend toward higher conversion, and a prolonged fly sparge without a mashout essentially prolongs the mash and usually you can expect to drop some gravity as a result as well.

And if you're using a different method/equipment to monitor mash temperature you might want to make sure it's correlated to a known good thermometer

Cheers!

This is a good point and something I forgot about during a short brewing layoff. I got a bit sloppy, didn't raise mash temp for before a fly sparge. My first couple of brews back were a bit too dry and thin and wanted to keep fermenting when i hit my target gravity. The devil is in the details.