BE-256 dry Fermetis 'abbey'; has anyone used it , results?

[Miraculix]

You are correct about the clove phenol (4VG) precursors. But there are other spicy phenols as well which play an important role in Belgian styles (which BE-256 claims to produce). However these appear to be mainly a factor of wort and hop compounds as well as yeast genetics. There doesn't seem to be any indication that lower temperatures promote phenol formation. Lower temperatures allow the phenols to com through more clearly in the absence of esters and higher alcohols, though.

This paper (VanBeneden, University of Leuven, Belgium 2007) states in its abstract that:


Further down it says that:


And:


It's a lengthy and rather technical paper but very informative, so if you have some time on your hands have a look at it.

Thanks, I'll have a read when I find some time.

However in this specific case, @Ninoid and I both used this 134yeast under similar conditions and we both had zero clove when fermented high and a very clean beer in general, almost lager like. This is what it is.

@RPh_Guy and I were discussing peppery phenols somewhere else and the consensus seemed to be that those are also promoted at the lower temperature range, which was matching my experiences with belle saison which gave me zero pepper or clove when fermented above 30c (still not as remarkably clean as 134 though, lots of higher alcohols, wasn't a nice beer).

 

[frankvw]

Thanks, I'll have a read when I find some time.

However in this specific case, @Ninoid and I both used this 134yeast under similar conditions and we both had zero clove when fermented high and a very clean beer in general, almost lager like. This is what it is.

@RPh_Guy and I were discussing peppery phenols somewhere else and the consensus seemed to be that those are also promoted at the lower temperature range, which was matching my experiences with belle saison which gave me zero pepper or clove when fermented above 30c (still not as remarkably clean as 134 though, lots of higher alcohols, wasn't a nice beer).

I'll see what else I can find out. I know a good brewing consultant here; let me see if I can get hold of him to pick his brain. I'll report back here if I learn anything new!

 

[couchsending]

@frankvw when you say typical pitch rate are you counting yeast cells before pitching with a scope or are you just basing it off a set number of cells per gram.

I did just reread that Fermentis pamphlet they produced and I can see where they do say it produces a ton of Isoamylacetate. Looks like on the data sheet they may be just publishing the green apple ester levels. That is a great read for anyone although it seems like there are a few things that contradict themselves in there.

For anyone that cares:

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Brochure_Tips_and_Tricks_201810_BD-1.pdf

 

[frankvw]

@frankvw when you say typical pitch rate are you counting yeast cells before pitching with a scope or are you just basing it off a set number of cells per gram.

The latter. If it's good enough for Jamil Zainasheff it's good enough for me.

@frankvwI did just reread that Fermentis pamphlet they produced and I can see where they do say it produces a ton of Isoamylacetate. Looks like on the data sheet they may be just publishing the green apple ester levels. That is a great read for anyone although it seems like there are a few things that contradict themselves in there.

Current Fermentis documentation is better than what they published previously, but that's really the best that can be said about it. It used to be absolute rubbish: for years they misclassified S-23 and W-34/70 as S/Cerevisiae. Go figure. But in all fairness, they have made an effort to improve their documentation. Now it's only confusing and next to useless in most cases.

 

[frankvw]

@Miraculix: also have a look at this paper; it's interesting: Fig. 4 shows a small but visible correlation between 4VP formation and fermentation temperatures. VanBeneden (cited above) already concluded that "the high concentrations often encountered in blond and dark specialty beers must originate from the enzymatic decarboxylation of HCA’s by Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast strains during wort fermentation. [...] During alcohol fermentation, it was clearly shown that the majority of 4VG is formed during the second half of the fermentation process when all fermentable sugars were consumed. This suggests that the Pad1 enzyme might be involved in the course of events triggered upon the stress presented by nutrient depletion." However, VanBeneden does not mention any effects of fermentation temperatures.

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix: also have a look at this paper; it's interesting: Fig. 4 shows a small but visible correlation between 4VP formation and fermentation temperatures. VanBeneden (cited above) already concluded that "the high concentrations often encountered in blond and dark specialty beers must originate from the enzymatic decarboxylation of HCA’s by Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast strains during wort fermentation. [...] During alcohol fermentation, it was clearly shown that the majority of 4VG is formed during the second half of the fermentation process when all fermentable sugars were consumed. This suggests that the Pad1 enzyme might be involved in the course of events triggered upon the stress presented by nutrient depletion." However, VanBeneden does not mention any effects of fermentation temperatures.

I think it is safe to say that we best judge this beast by experience. Those rules are nice but there is always the odd one sticking out. For example, ester production usually is enhanced at higher temperatures but us05 throws more esters at lower temperatures (peach). Ninoids and my 134 batches, fermented above 30c didn't show even a hint of clove while all the people using it within the normal range experience clove or even clove bomb like beers.

I guess at the end there are general trends, like more esters at higher temperatures, but how the specific strain behaves might be a completely different thing.

 

[frankvw]

@Miraculix: also have a look at this paper; it's interesting:

If you feel like trying 134 again, I had it fermenting around 30C and above and got ZERO clove out of it. It was very clean. The clove seems to appear more and more the lwoer the temperature.

Could that be a factor of the grains and/or grain bill used? I have never brewed with American malts but it is my gut feeling (admitting that that's all it is!) that European Pilsener malt and local (South African) pale 2-row produces more precursors to 4VG and 4VP than US malts. But I have nothing to back that up.

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix: also have a look at this paper; it's interesting:

Could that be a factor of the grains and/or grain bill used? I have never brewed with American malts but it is my gut feeling (admitting that that's all it is!) that European Pilsener malt and local (South African) pale 2-row produces more precursors to 4VG and 4VP than US malts. But I have nothing to back that up.

I'm living in the UK, this was brewed with Marris Otter pale malt and spelt flour.

 

[Dland]

FWIW, cloven 134 batch 1 was 10# Viking Euro pils, 5.5 Marris Otter, 2.5 malted rye, 1.5 malted white wheat, .5 Weyerman acid malt.

Batch 2 134 less cloven was 10# Viking pils, 5 Irish Stout malt, 2.5 malted rye, 2 flaked corn.

As with the plastic kviek failure, wort very clean and free from hot break or hops solids, if extra nutrition is a factor. Current hot side procedure mostly for nice clean lagers and lighter ales. Possibly a factor in phenol production?

I wonder if plastic taste in kviek is a phenol, ester or what? but I digress....

 

[RPh_Guy]

Most kveik cultures are not-phenolic. Which one are you talking about?

 

[Dland]

The hornandel.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...s-blowing-my-mind.653929/page-13#post-8661386

Most kveik cultures are not-phenolic. Which one are you talking about?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hornindal is non-phenolic.

Plastic taste could come from chlorinated water or a contamination.

 

[Dland]

Non chlorinated filtered well water, brewed and fermented in all stainless. I suppose any beer could be infected with something, but this does not taste infected to me.

 

[RPh_Guy]

this does not taste infected to me.

? If you taste phenolic flavor and you pitched a yeast that doesn't produce phenols ..... Then how did the phenols get there? It's a dead giveaway of contamination.

 

[Dland]

I guess I was asking of plastic was defiantly a phenol, perhaps it does not matter what the agent of contamination is, beer tastes bad, but remain curious.

Since I brew frequently and successfully, it is important to me to try to explain the failures, so as not to repeat. As far as I can tell, the only variable in that one was the yeast. It was a pilsner Amarillo SMASH to test yeast.

I won't rule out some sort of biologic infection, as I know that can happen even when careful, but I know of no other possible agent in process. I doubt Omega is shipping compromised yeasts, or others would have had the same problem.

Have not had a dumper for a while now, but this one goes as soon as I need the kegs or space. Was hoping it would improve with age, but no such luck.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I was asking if plastic was definitely a phenol

Yes, it is.

 

[frankvw]

I wonder if plastic taste in kviek is a phenol, ester or what? but I digress....

Let me Google that for you:

Plastic off flavors can often be attributed to tannin/phenol extraction from grain or excessive hop use combined with chlorine in tap water or sanitizers. Over sparge or boiling grain are the most likely grain related culprits.

(Source: here.)

 

[frankvw]

Most kveik cultures are not-phenolic. Which one are you talking about?

Brewing with a POF- yeast doesn't mean you can't have phenol flavors in your beer. Tannin and TCP are both phenols. Some phenols are produced during the boil by thermal decarboxylation of precursors derived from the malt and hops. And then there's accidental contamination with wild yeast strains which are often POF+.

 

[Dland]

"frankvw, post: 8686326, member: 72310"]Let me Google that for you:

"Plastic off flavors can often be attributed to tannin/phenol extraction from grain or excessive hop use combined with chlorine in tap water or sanitizers. Over sparge or boiling grain are the most likely grain related culprits."

Dland response:

Pretty sure none of above conditions occurred in the wort in question. The one other variable besides the kviek yeast(and fermenting intentionally warm, which is a bit of an anathema to me) was use of 100% Viking pils for grain bill, but have used at 50% with no off flavors. Well water, empty sanitized SS conical(I have to carry it down a flight of stairs before wort transfer), moderate hop bill(around 35 IBU). Sparge, standard fly sparge 9 gallons over around 45 min, mash temp never exceeded 165F during sparge, below tannin extraction level(this is one of the parameters I take note of, ).

My conclusion is if it was not the yeast, then some other biological got into system at some point, despite my efforts at sanitation(I have a good system, but not enough hubris to state infection impossible)

 

[RPh_Guy]

Brewing with a POF- yeast doesn't mean you can't have phenol flavors in your beer. Tannin and TCP are both phenols. Some phenols are produced during the boil by thermal decarboxylation of precursors derived from the malt and hops. And then there's accidental contamination with wild yeast strains which are often POF+.

Yeah I figured he'd probably have issues with his other beers if the off-flavor was from wort production. He's not a newbie.

I over-sparged a beer when I was starting out. It was pretty harsh, but not "plastic" like I experience from yeast phenols. Not all phenols taste the same, obviously.

The random guy on a forum you cited.... Not exactly an expert regarding off-flavors since he doesn't even mention contamination as a possible source for phenols.

 

[Tyler B]

Those of you who have experience with BE-256... How/when are you cropping this yeast?

I just pitched in a Belgian golden strong/Duvel type of wort. I'll be adding some additional sugar for a second ferment (in the primary vessel) once the initial ferment slows down, probably in about 3 days. I'm just wondering when I crop?

Should I crop after each ferment? Or as soon as I reach final gravity? Or after the standard 2 weeks in primary?

Also, how does this process improve the beer? What flavors does it add or preserve?

Any advice would be appreciated!

 

[Mer-man]

If it's a banana bomb, maybe use Sabro for coconut and Denali for pineapple, then it's pina colada time!

 

[Tyler B]

If it's a banana bomb, maybe use Sabro for coconut and Denali for pineapple, then it's pina colada time!

Thanks for the advice, sounds interesting, but I already brewed the beer and don't have either of those available.

I've searched all over and can't find much on this. I checked the fermentis site, read all of the documents on their website that might address it... No luck.

I emailed fermentis so hopefully they respond in the next couple of days. I'll share any response I get with all of you.

 

[frankvw]

Those of you who have experience with BE-256... How/when are you cropping this yeast?

In general, I crop from the primary fermentation after about a week. I'd probably do the same for BE-256.

Also, how does this process improve the beer? What flavors does it add or preserve?

Simply put, cropped yeast is liquid yeast (fresh yeast cells which are the descendants of the originally pitched dried yeast cells) which has not gone through the stresses of being dried and stored over time. These stresses cause dried yeasts to exhibit slightly higher levels of sulfur compounds and other substances that detract somewhat from the cleanliness of the beer's flavor. Ask any microbrewer who uses US-05 (and there are many) and they'll tell you that first and second generation yeast tastes better and more clean/neutral than generation-zero (i.e. freshly pitched dry) US-05.

 

[Tyler B]

In general, I crop from the primary fermentation after about a week. I'd probably do the same for BE-256.


Simply put, cropped yeast is liquid yeast (fresh yeast cells which are the descendants of the originally pitched dried yeast cells) which has not gone through the stresses of being dried and stored over time. These stresses cause dried yeasts to exhibit slightly higher levels of sulfur compounds and other substances that detract somewhat from the cleanliness of the beer's flavor. Ask any microbrewer who uses US-05 (and there are many) and they'll tell you that first and second generation yeast tastes better and more clean/neutral than generation-zero (i.e. freshly pitched dry) US-05.

Thanks for the response! I understand all of this. I'm not looking for info on cropping in general, but rather why/how fermentis recommends cropping this strain to improve "generation zero" when I'm not planning on reusing the yeast for future generations.

Their website says:
"To maintain the aromatic profile at the end of the fermentation, we do recommend to crop this yeast as soon as possible after fermentation."

I'm wondering what "the end of fermentation" means and what specific flavors and aromas might be altered by cropping or not cropping.

Edit: typo

 

[frankvw]

[Fermentis]says:
"To maintain the aromatic profile at the end of the fermentation, we do recommend to crop this yeast as soon as possible after fermentation."
I'm wondering what "the end of fermentation" means and what specific flavors and aromas might be altered by cropping or not cropping.

I'm not quite sure, either. But then, Fermentis' product info leaves a lot to be desired. (As do some of their yeasts and the way they market them, but that's another matter.)

Typical Belgian yeasts are often top-cropped, something for which they are eminently suited due to the massive road pavers of Krausen they tend to produce. Top cropping yeast means you snatch the yeast cells from the fermenter while they're in the middle of fermenting the beer, which ensures maximum viability. For Belgians you need to pitch a healthy and generously stocked yeast population, so it works out perfectly that way.

However, in my opinion BE-256 is anything but a typical Belgian yeast. I'm actually not sure you can even call it a Belgian yeast. It's POF-negative, it has a weirdly high attenuation and it tends to produce excessive levels of isoamyl acetate, so how they can position this as an Abbey-style yeast is entirely beyond me. Its tendency for "hot" alcohols at even moderately high fermentation temperatures is pretty much the only "Belgian" characteristic it has. But then, Fermentis did advertise S-33 (which is plain ol' EDME) as a yeast for Belgian styles in previous years, so what the heck...

That said, in general it is good practice to crop yeast as fresh as possible in order to end up with a healthy yeast population ready for the next fermentation. That would "maintain the aromatic profile at the end of the fermentation", I guess. Unless they mean you shouldn't let the beer sit on the yeast for longer than necessary because that may negatively influence the aromatic profile. Or something. With Fermentis you never know....

// F

 

[Tyler B]

Good stuff! This is the kind of conversation I was hoping to generate. Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed response.

Unless they mean you shouldn't let the beer sit on the yeast for longer than necessary because that may negatively influence the aromatic profile. Or something. With Fermentis you never know....

And THIS is exactly what I'm hoping Fermentis will answer. Unless of course someone else here can speak from experience.

 

[thehaze]

I've used BE-256 a few times and plan on using it again. It's not very belgiany and it's not very expressive either. But I do like its attenuation, its alcohol tolerance and flocculation/sedimentation. It ferments fast and aggressive and does not stall. It can easily go down to 1.006-1.005 and for me, that's something I want in light, crisp pale beers. I never cropped it and although I read Fermentis' recommendations beforehand, I never did it. Then again, a lot of my beers don't get to sit in the fermenter more than 9-12 days, and 12 days happens whenever I don't have the time to package the beer due to responsabilities: job, family, etc. At 11 days, I've never experienced anything " off " with the beers fermented with this yeast. I suppose it leaves things to interpretation: if I were to crop BE-256, I would probably do it 7 days after it started fermenting. It would be finished by then. I am also curious why would this yeast need cropping ...

 

[Tyler B]

I am also curious why would this yeast need cropping ...

I would have left it alone, if it wasn't for the comment (quoted above) directly from the Fermentis website.

I'm wondering if cropping removes the yeast and prevents them from "cleaning up" any phenolic compounds, which would give the finished beer a more Belgiany flavor and aroma. I have no idea.

Im leaning towards popping my bucket open, after about 3-4 days, cropping any yeast on top, then adding my final sugar addition, waiting an additional 4-5 days or so to crop one last time, and let it finish in the keg. I'd be looking at something like 7-10 days total in primary. Then let it age in an O2-free/CO2-purged keg for as long as it needs.

Whatever I do, I'll be sure to report back. Thanks again for everyone's input. Everything in this thread has been helpful (including info about kveik).

 

[frankvw]

I'm wondering if cropping removes the yeast and prevents them from "cleaning up" any phenolic compounds, which would give the finished beer a more Belgiany flavor and aroma.

Nope. First off, BE-256 is POF negative so it produces no phenols at all. Secondly, it's the yeast in suspension that cleans up the flavors in the beer; not the yeast you crop. Thirdly, compounds like diacetyl are susceptible to a re-uptake later in the fermentation, but (to the best of my knowledge) phenols aren't. At least, I haven't found anything about a "phenol re-uptake" sort of thing.

That said, many phenols produced by Belgian yeasts tend to be volatile and an excessively long secondary fermentation may, under the right/wrong conditions, allow the bulk of them to partially escape the beer, thus reducing the typically Belgian spice character. (This I know from experience.)