Batch venting

[cimirie]

So, I'm truly angry right now! I bottled a batch of this year's Christmas Ale on Sunday. It was brewed in October and I've been aging it ever since. The base recipe was a Belgian strong and added spices and sweet orange peel.

So, bottling in 750ml champaigne went well and then it was time for a tasting. AWFUL!!! The aroma was hot (but it was 78 in my kitchen at bottling time, so no big suprise) which didn't have me worried. The flavor at the front of the taste was very promising. Then came the swallow. Wicked, wicked bitter. I'm not talking lip smacking, not in style bitter. I'm talking about mouth-drying, face-scrunching, no flavor bitter. I have no idea how this was possible. For a 6 gallon batch, I used a total of 2.25 oz hops (11 AA soriachi ace, and a a touch of cascade) which doesn't seem like it would warrant such a taste.

In full disclosure, it was sitting in primary the entire time. Though I haven't had a batch ever sit that long on trub before, I have had batches with much more hops sit half that long without any noticible effect.

I know we always say that time will heal and take the edge off of hop bitterness. But, as it has already aged for months, should I expect to see any relief here?

OK, venting done. Constructive condolences?

 

[Pappers_]

Sorry for your disappointment. I'm unclear from your description - you didn't dry hop, right?

Would any of your spice additions have added bitterness?

 

[Homercidal]

If it's just hops bitter, it WILL fade over time. If it's from something else, it may stick around for a bit. The good news is that a strong is supposed to be aged for a long time, so give it 6 months to a year and try again.

I accidentally dumped twice as many hops in my kettle on a half-batch of Golden Strong and after 3 months the bitter started to fade a bit. Still pretty bitter, but it's 10-10-10 brew, so it's got a lot of time to work.

 

[Yooper]

could it be from the orange peel? Orange peel to me can get very bitter if it's boiled.

 

[DRoyLenz]

could it be from the orange peel? Orange peel to me can get very bitter if it's boiled.

Also, if you grated the orange peel yourself, were you careful to just have the orangey goodness, and keep the white pith out of the orange peel? Combine adding the white pith and boiling the orange peel for any amount of time could give some pretty nasty bitterness I would think.

 

[jpsloan]

What you're describing is almost exactly what's going on in my Belgian Strong, and is what I would expect. You might have another six months before you really get a read on what it's supposed to taste like. Just in time for the holiday season!

 

[cimirie]

Thanks for the interest gang. Let me address some questions.

No dry hopping with this batch.

Yes I did grate the orange peel myself. They were sweet Florida juice oranges which I thought would add a great orange undertone. I took care to not hit the pith, but as I'm not an expert zester, it's quite possible I didn't succeed as well as I had hoped. It was only in the boil for about 10 minutes, though, as I wanted only a bit of flavor and aroma. Stupid oranges!

I did use cinnamon and nutmeg in the boil - both of which I'm told have bittering properties. I've used both before in similar quantities with no I'll effects, however.

I know strongs are supposed to age and bittrness is supposed to fade, but I'm already at 6 months. Will it still continue to fade?

One last factor I just thought about. Just under 6 gallons went into primary. I gathered exactly 5 gallons for bottling. Accounting for ~.5 gallon loss in the trub, I had about .5 gallon loss in evaporation. My airlock went dry once or twice. Could that account for some bitterness concentration?

On that same note, I calculated my priming sugar based on 6 gallons so instead of my typical 3/4 cup sugar, I used just under a cup. I didn't realize how much less beer I had until my bottling bucket was full and mixed. Should I be overly concerned about bottle bombs with an extra 3/16 cup sugar? I don't mind an overly fizzy brew (this is a holiday cheer beer after all), but I don't want shrapnel in my closet.

 

[david_42]

Just for grins: has the gravity changed? If you are losing the malt backbone, the bitterness will come through.

 

[Homercidal]

As far as the carbonation is concerned, a Golden Strong is supposed to be highly carbed. So, it's not wrong to put a bit of extra sugar in. However, I don't know how much a standard bottle can take. I planned on using the heavy champagne and Golden Strong bottles, but I only had a few, so I carbed as normal. So far no problems.

I still think you need to stick them away and forget about them. Or, if you want some immediate relief, send me a bottle and I'll taste it for you. It's just hard to tell via internet if it's a hop bitterness, or astringency, or infection. (with infection, you will often see a ring on the inside of the bottle at the top of the beer line.)

 

[Daparish]

Did I read your first post right when you said that you've had your Strong sitting in the primary for 7 months? That long on trub and yeast would impart some oxidation and off-flavors wouldn't it?

 

[Homercidal]

Did I read your first post right when you said that you've had your Strong sitting in the primary for 7 months? That long on trub and yeast would impart some oxidation and off-flavors wouldn't it?

Possibly. Maybe likely. But it's too late now. I'd recommend a secondary for anything that is going to sit for a month after initial fermentation.

I'm not familiar with any bitter flavor caused by autolysis or oxidation. Autolysis gives a meaty flavor IIRC, and oxidation supposedly tastes like cardboard.

 

[cimirie]

Yes, it has been sitting in primary for 6 months. In hindsight, I realize that was probably an error. I should have used a secondary. I realize off flavors could have come from that (how could oxidation come into play by sitting on trub? I hadn't heard that). Such bitterness, though...

Gravity finished out at 14 pts. Just about 2 pts lighter than what I expected. It actually has a good malt body which is another reason this is messing with me.

I'm not worried about infection. No pellicle.

Does anybody else have an opinion as to the bottling question. Half were bottled in champaigne bottles but the other half were standard.

Thanks for the brainstorming. At the end of the day, it's just beer. I would just like to figure out the why's.

 

[android]

ya know, it's really hard to evaluate beer when it's warm and flat. i would definitely revisit this when you have one carbed up and chilled for a few days at least. i bet you it will taste completely different. and i also support the orange bitterness theory, especially if you boiled them for 10 minutes. orange peel ruined a wit beer i did last year.

 

[cimirie]

Stupid oranges. So, am I hearing the majority say that in general, using orange peel in the boil is a bad idea? When then should I add orange peel (or should I avoid using it at all)?

 

[bosco_NJ]

Stupid oranges. So, am I hearing the majority say that in general, using orange peel in the boil is a bad idea? When then should I add orange peel (or should I avoid using it at all)?

I make a Blood Orange Hefeweizen that i zest 6 oranges & add them along w/ the oranges themselves careful to not get any pith to a pot w/ 170* water. I then STEEP them for 20 min. I then add the peels & oranges to a sanitized grain bag along w/ the juice to the fermenter just towards the end of fermentation (around day 10). Let sit for another 4-5 days then bottle. So if i was gonna just add the peels i would just steep them first then add to fermenter or if you are gonna secondary maybe add them when you rack over.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Oxidation doesn't come from sitting on the yeast. That's not correct at all. Autolysis is a potential issue, as is infection, but I wouldn't think autolysis tastes bitter, and I've tasted an autolysis sample, so I think that's not right.

As for orange peel... LOTS of people use orange peel all the time in their beer. It is a common ingredient in a wit. So I doubt that's the issue either. I'd lean toward infection on this, but give it time. See what happens.

 

[giligson]

How familiar are you with the Sorachi Ace hops that you used?
Is it from a good supplier, is the AA% properly calculated?
could you have made an error in measuring out the hops or somehow pushed the utilization beyond what you calculated?

I Tried using some Summit hops 18% AA last year - just awful, crappy bitter: not the nice bitterness that you would like in most ales. I left a few bottles around to age and at about One year they are starting to taste reasonable - but I will not use this hop from this supplier again.

 

[cimirie]

Hops... For the record, the S.A. I used I have never used before. This was an experiment. They were calculated at just over 10% (don't remember exactly at this moment and I'm away from the house) and they came from Fresh Hops so I would say it's a reliable provider.

I suppose I could have screwed the pooch on calculations, but I only had .5oz for the boil. Additions were as follows...

-.5oz SA: 60min
-.25oz SA: 20min
-.5oz Fuggles: 20min (I previously reported them as Cascade)
-1oz SA: 6min

Even if the AA is way off base, .5oz of anything for 60min in 6 gallons shouldn't make it undrinkable, right? I suppose my scale could have been off. But my "eyeball meter" didn't register anything out of the ordinary either. Weird.

Infection: I've never had an infection in a beer I've made (at least not one I didn't intend to). Can some infections create this taste? I've always thought all infections would give off more sour or funky like a lacto or brett type? Thanks again for having this discussion, ya'll. I like venting to people who understand my pain!!!