Batch Sparging Question

[rel]

Using 2 step batch sparge, is it more important to:

1. Aim for equal runnings

OR

2. Raise the temperature of the mash to 168F before the first runnings


My next brew:

16.5 lbs of grain
7.5 gallons pre-boil volume

To mash in, we use 22.6 qts (1.2 qts/lb-grain plus 2 qts dead space)

If aiming for equal runnings, after accounting for grain absorption, we only have to add 1.3 qts to get 3.75 gallons in the first runnings. This is nowhere near enough water, even at boiling temperature, to raise the temperature of the mash to 168F before the first running.

 

[duboman]

There is no need to mash out when batch sparging, collect first runnings, add 168-180 degree sparge water (This actually halts conversion) vorleuf and drain to meet required pre-boil volume.

When you say two step are you meaning batch sparge twice? Can your tun not accommodate the entire sparge volume? If it can I would say sparge once.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . is it more important to:
1. Aim for equal runnings
OR
2. Raise the temperature of the mash to 168F before the first runnings

Neither. You don't need a mash-out with batch sparging. Get the first runnings on your burner and start heating. Subtract the first running volume from your pre boil volume and sparge with that much 185 degree water.

 

[rel]

Hello,

Thanks for the response.

Step 1: I top off to reach half the batch size in the first running. I guess I was aiming to perform a mash out here before collecting first runnings, but the top off is never enough volume to raise the temperature to 168F. Hence my question, is it more important to reach 168F or aim for equal runnings.

Step 2: Then I was adding the remaining volume at 168F and collecting the second, and equal, runnings.

 

[AnOldUR]

As long as you have enough room in your tun for the volume required to meet your pre boil volume, there's no need to top off before your first running. There is no real advantage to equal volume runnings.

edit for example:
Brewed this past Sunday. Needed 9 gallons pre boil. Got 3 gallons into kettle from first runnings. Added 6 gallons to tun. Stir, vorlauf, drain.

 

[stpug]

I agree that there is no advantage to equal runnings; besides you won't know if they'll be equal until you drain your first runnings to determine how much more volume you need to reach your preboil volume.

Mash out might be important if it takes you a really long time to get your first runnings onto a burner (like 45+ minutes) because you'll allow the enzymes to continue working on your sugars while it sits which can affect the overall malt profiles you're aiming for. If you're getting your runnings onto a burner in a reasonable amount of time then I also do not see the benefit of mashing out.

I do like AnOldUR - drain first runnings into BK and put them on the burner; drain additional runnings and add to the BK to reach preboil volume.

 

[Denny]

Neither. You don't need a mash-out with batch sparging. Get the first runnings on your burner and start heating. Subtract the first running volume from your pre boil volume and sparge with that much 185 degree water.

THIS^^^^ is the correct answer!

 

[New_Climber]

ANold..if I may ask....when you add the 6 gal to get your total pre-boil up to 9 gals...what temp is the water you add? Are you trying to get the grain temp up to 170deg..so you might add 190 degree water..sparge water??

 

[New_Climber]

Sorry guys. Denny already answered the question

 

[AnOldUR]

Are you trying to get the grain temp up to 170deg..so you might add 190 degree water..sparge water??

Yes, but for my set-up that takes sparge water in the 180-185 degree range. Although, I do it that way more because I can, not that it's necessary. Like the first, the second runnings will be in the kettle quick enough that mash-out temperatures are not important then either.

There's a thread here somewhere showing that the sugars are soluble even in cold water, so sparge water temperature is not critical as long as the grain bed doesn't go over 170 degrees for an extended period. Using 180-185 degree water gets my mash to 165-170 and helps me get to a boil faster. Stirring the mash really well to suspend the sugars is the important thing.

 

[Denny]

Yes, but for my set-up that takes sparge water in the 180-185 degree range. Although, I do it that way more because I can, not that it's necessary. Like the first, the second runnings will be in the kettle quick enough that mash-out temperatures are not important then either.

There's a thread here somewhere showing that the sugars are soluble even in cold water, so sparge water temperature is not critical as long as the grain bed doesn't go over 170 degrees for an extended period. Using 180-185 degree water gets my mash to 165-170 and helps me get to a boil faster. Stirring the mash really well to suspend the sugars is the important thing.

The other plus about using hotter water is that it ensures that conversion is complete.

 

[New_Climber]

Not trying to hijack this thread...but I think this is related to my sparge process..

But the problem I seem to have is I am getting a fruity taste in my beers. In doing much reading here, I am wondering if my mash/sparge process is what is causing it.

Typically, I have been just splitting my water between mash and sparge...meaning, if I want 7 gal pre boil, I usually put 4 gal for mash at 150deg for 45mins (strike temp for mash water is what ever beer smith tells me)...drain into boil pot and then sparge with 4gals. The extra gal usually gets me enough to hit my full pre-boil amount unless i am doing a bigger beer.

When i sparge, I use what ever strike temp beer smith tells me, looking at my last brew it was around 195deg water. I let that sit for 5mins, recirc, and then drain into my boil pot.

What has been happening, is that many of my bigger IPA's are turning out horrible...I am a big hop head but have stopped making IPA's because they are pretty much undrinkable. Usually I get a bitter beer, not hoppy beer, but bitter beer...and then recently, some of my less hopped pale ales (around 1055 OG) have had a fruity flavor...being all my beers have this off flavor, it must be something with my process..My darker stouts have been pretty good, using the same process.

Am I being lazy and not doing my mash/sparge correctly? I know there is a lot of things that can contribute to bitter beer, or fruity beer off flavors..I am just thinking this might be what is causing my issue??

Any insight would be great...

 

[AnOldUR]

What temperature is the 195 degree sparge water leaving your grain bed at? If it's over 170 and you're letting it sit at this temperature it could lead to tannins that would leave an astringent (overly bitter) flavor. This flavor could be masked by the darker grains in your stouts. Not sure about the fruity flavor. That's something that's usually yeast derived, not due to the mash.

 

[rel]

AnOldUR is definitely corrent. Your sparge water is too hot and raising the temperature of the mash over 170.

Your strike water was calculated by beersmith as to raise the temperature of the grains and mash tun, which are at room temperature, to reach the desired mash temperature.

When you drain the mash tun and add 195 degree water as sparge water, the grains are already hot. The result is that your mash temperature is way too high for the second runnings.

Always use water that is 168 for the second running and you should be fine.

 

[New_Climber]

OK, thx guys I will try this the next time I brew...

Any opinions on the way I do my water amounts?? Using half my pre-boil to mash and the other half to sparge??

Basically ignoring the 1.25qt/lb of grain rule? Will this lead to off flavors also?

 

[Denny]

Not trying to hijack this thread...but I think this is related to my sparge process..

But the problem I seem to have is I am getting a fruity taste in my beers. In doing much reading here, I am wondering if my mash/sparge process is what is causing it.

Typically, I have been just splitting my water between mash and sparge...meaning, if I want 7 gal pre boil, I usually put 4 gal for mash at 150deg for 45mins (strike temp for mash water is what ever beer smith tells me)...drain into boil pot and then sparge with 4gals. The extra gal usually gets me enough to hit my full pre-boil amount unless i am doing a bigger beer.

When i sparge, I use what ever strike temp beer smith tells me, looking at my last brew it was around 195deg water. I let that sit for 5mins, recirc, and then drain into my boil pot.

What has been happening, is that many of my bigger IPA's are turning out horrible...I am a big hop head but have stopped making IPA's because they are pretty much undrinkable. Usually I get a bitter beer, not hoppy beer, but bitter beer...and then recently, some of my less hopped pale ales (around 1055 OG) have had a fruity flavor...being all my beers have this off flavor, it must be something with my process..My darker stouts have been pretty good, using the same process.

Am I being lazy and not doing my mash/sparge correctly? I know there is a lot of things that can contribute to bitter beer, or fruity beer off flavors..I am just thinking this might be what is causing my issue??

Any insight would be great...

There is nothing in your process that would cause that flavor. Do you know what your water is like?

 

[Denny]

What temperature is the 195 degree sparge water leaving your grain bed at? If it's over 170 and you're letting it sit at this temperature it could lead to tannins that would leave an astringent (overly bitter) flavor. This flavor could be masked by the darker grains in your stouts. Not sure about the fruity flavor. That's something that's usually yeast derived, not due to the mash.

If it's astringency, it would be exacerbated in darker beers.

 

[Denny]

AnOldUR is definitely corrent. Your sparge water is too hot and raising the temperature of the mash over 170.

Your strike water was calculated by beersmith as to raise the temperature of the grains and mash tun, which are at room temperature, to reach the desired mash temperature.

When you drain the mash tun and add 195 degree water as sparge water, the grains are already hot. The result is that your mash temperature is way too high for the second runnings.

Always use water that is 168 for the second running and you should be fine.

Sorry, that's just wrong. I regularly use 190+ sparge water without problems. Even with that, the grainbed never goes over 170. Even if it did, I wouldn't be worried since I know my pH is in range. Think about ecoctions...you BOIL the GRAIN! No problem becasue the pH is OK.

 

[Denny]

OK, thx guys I will try this the next time I brew...

Any opinions on the way I do my water amounts?? Using half my pre-boil to mash and the other half to sparge??

Basically ignoring the 1.25qt/lb of grain rule? Will this lead to off flavors also?

No, it won't cause off flavors.

 

[novahokie09]

What has been happening, is that many of my bigger IPA's are turning out horrible...I am a big hop head but have stopped making IPA's because they are pretty much undrinkable. Usually I get a bitter beer, not hoppy beer, but bitter beer...and then recently, some of my less hopped pale ales (around 1055 OG) have had a fruity flavor...being all my beers have this off flavor, it must be something with my process..My darker stouts have been pretty good, using the same process.

Am I being lazy and not doing my mash/sparge correctly? I know there is a lot of things that can contribute to bitter beer, or fruity beer off flavors..I am just thinking this might be what is causing my issue??

Any insight would be great...

My guess is you're adding a lot of late hop additions that add hop flavor, which you're interpreting as fruity flavors.

I would have initially guessed that you're fermenting at too high a temperature, which can cause excess ester production, but you stated your stouts don't have this same issue. The difference being that you wouldn't use late hop additions in a stout.

 

[AnOldUR]

Sorry, that's just wrong. I regularly use 190+ sparge water without problems. Even with that, the grainbed never goes over 170. Even if it did, I wouldn't be worried since I know my pH is in range. Think about ecoctions...you BOIL the GRAIN! No problem becasue the pH is OK.

If your grain bed isn't going over 170 I wouldn't expect there to be a problem for you. That's why I asked him if his was. Two things he is doing that could lead to tannin extraction. First, he's allowing the mash to rest after adding sparge water. Second, his method for dividing up his liquor makes the mash thickness very thin after adding the sparge water. At 195 degrees this infusion will more than likely raise the grain bed well over 170 degrees. This is nothing like a decoction where you are boiling the thick mash at the resulting pH.

 

[Denny]

If your grain bed isn't going over 170 I wouldn't expect there to be a problem for you. That's why I asked him if his was. Two things he is doing that could lead to tannin extraction. First, he's allowing the mash to rest after adding sparge water. Second, his method for dividing up his liquor makes the mash thickness very thin after adding the sparge water. At 195 degrees this infusion will more than likely raise the grain bed well over 170 degrees. This is nothing like a decoction where you are boiling the thick mash at the resulting pH.

I'm afraid you're going to have to explain to me why letting the grain sit after adding sparge water puts him at risk of tannins. And you really don't know that his grainbed is going over 170, what his pH is, or if he's really getting tannins. No disrespect intended, but it looks to me like maybe you're going in the wrong direction.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . it looks to me like maybe you're going in the wrong direction.

Could very well be. Things don't always add up the way I'd expect, but here's my train of thought. My concern was not just letting the grain bed rest, but letting it rest at an elevated temperature. He's said he's doughing in with 4 gallons and then sparging with 4 gallons. After accounting for grain absorbsion, that would lead to a relatively thin mash after the sparge water is added. If the mass was equal, adding 195 degree to 150 degree would average out at 172. In this case it appears there's a greater volume on the 195 degree side, so that puts the temperature higher. How much, I don't know.

And I could be wrong, but I thought that thinner mash lead to higher pH which in combination with high temperature extracted tannins.

 

[bhanson]

I don’t see anything necessarily wrong with his process. It sounds very similar to my own, and I don't experience any problems. It is possible that it is a fermentation problem, caused by temperature or yeast that's producing esters which might be interpreted as 'bitter' or 'fruity. What yeast is being used, and what temperature are these IPA' s fermented?

Sent from my XT907 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[New_Climber]

First, thx for all the info...

One step that I don't think I made clear, was I mash out..drain my MT and then add my sparge water. Usually I take a quick temp after sparge water is added, and I am around 170-175. I do let it sit here for 10 mins.

I also use store bought bottled water and just got some ph strips so I can test my ph going forward.

Also, I am pretty certain it is not my fermenting temps. I cool to 65 degrees, and then I have a fermenting chamber controlled by a stc-1000. I never go above 68deg for the 10-14days it is fermenting.

I also use S04 or S05 and Notingham, for most of my brews. I don't do a starter, if my OG is over 1060, I will pitch two packets.

 

[brewkinger]

The other stuff has been assessed in an educated manner, so I'll chime in about ferment temps. The temp sounds high to me. If external temps are 68, then internal temps could be 5 or more degrees higher than that.
Not positive about the other yeasts, but I use Notty a lot and it prefers temps closer to low 60s
I usually try to get Notty down to 60 if I can.
A recent smash that I made, I was able to get it there and I am amazed at how crisp and neutral the flavor profile is.

Try getting the temps down and make a lighter colored beer to see if the fruity is still there.
Just my thoughts.

 

[Denny]

Could very well be. Things don't always add up the way I'd expect, but here's my train of thought. My concern was not just letting the grain bed rest, but letting it rest at an elevated temperature. He's said he's doughing in with 4 gallons and then sparging with 4 gallons. After accounting for grain absorbsion, that would lead to a relatively thin mash after the sparge water is added. If the mass was equal, adding 195 degree to 150 degree would average out at 172. In this case it appears there's a greater volume on the 195 degree side, so that puts the temperature higher. How much, I don't know.

And I could be wrong, but I thought that thinner mash lead to higher pH which in combination with high temperature extracted tannins.

I agree that a thinner mash will likely have a higher pH. Beyond that, I'd have to see experimental evidence for the rest.

And the OP was about a fruity flavor, not tannins, wasn't it?

 

[AnOldUR]

And the OP was about a fruity flavor, not tannins, wasn't it?

Most of the current discussion (on my part at least) come from post #12

...I am a big hop head but have stopped making IPA's because they are pretty much undrinkable. Usually I get a bitter beer, not hoppy beer, but bitter beer...and then recently, some of my less hopped pale ales have had a fruity flavor...being all my beers have this off flavor, it must be something with my process...

I could be mistakenly blaming overly bitterness on astringency from tannins. It was the first thing that came to mind when he described a process that looked like could result in thin, high temperature sparging.

As for the fruity flavor, I agree with brewkinger. If it's the ambient temperature in his fermentation chamber that's 68 degrees, the wort temperature is probably going into the mid 70's during active fermentation. In my experience, either notty or US-05 can get estery if not kept cooler.

The bitterness in some beers and fruity flavors in others could be two unrelated problems.

 

[Denny]

Most of the current discussion (on my part at least) come from post #12

I could be mistakenly blaming overly bitterness on astringency from tannins. It was the first thing that came to mind when he described a process that looked like could result in thin, high temperature sparging.

As for the fruity flavor, I agree with brewkinger. If it's the ambient temperature in his fermentation chamber that's 68 degrees, the wort temperature is probably going into the mid 70's during active fermentation. In my experience, either notty or US-05 can get estery if not kept cooler.

The bitterness in some beers and fruity flavors in others could be two unrelated problems.

That's why it's so important when troubleshooting something like this to make sure the difference between bitterness and astringency is understood. Astringency is a dry mouthfeel, not bitterness.

 

[New_Climber]

Again, thx...I have a lot of things to try on my next brew. I thought by going down to 60deg at the start of fermentation would be to cool...but I will definitely try that next time...

Also I will keep my sparge temps cooler. i am in the process of setting up a HERMS system, of which i will be able to raise my mash temp before I sparge...then i can just add 168deg water and call it good...no need to worry about strike temps for spare water.

Again, thanks...a lot to still learn to get a great tasting brew..

 

[chossy]

Don't want to hijack thread but thought this was a good place to ask about my own method and see what you guys can help out on. (Seems pointless starting another thread)


Anything terribly wrong with this.

(after Mash)
Drain into big pitcher vorlauf a couple times.

Then drain proper straight into my pan.

Then when the wort begins to show grains, I pour water out of big pitcher all over the grains trying to spread water out a bit all over grains ( I never stir....), until water gets about 3 inches or so above grains, (water same temperature as mash water), and repeat then I stop draining when my run off is about 1.010.

I am very new to all grain and if anyone wants to slap my wrists feel free

I put in 5.5Kilos (12lb) grain and got OG of 1.046 so I was happy with that....

Cheers For any help and if I have hijacked the thread I will start another one.

Sláinte!

 

[Denny]

What you are doing is fly sparging, not batch sparging.

 

[bhanson]

Just a quick note to back up the question of sparge water vs. grain bed temperature. I just completed batch sparging 10 lbs of grain. After fully draining the first running, I added 4.2 gallons of water measuring 182 degrees. stirred vigorously, and measured the overall temperature as it settled. 167 degrees.

So I think it's possible with a small grain bill that 185-190 degree water at some volume will push the overall temperature of the grain over 170 if you also mash thick and sparge with a higher volume.... BUT, if you use equal runnings, I just don't think it will ever be a problem, and I've never experienced astringency I would attribute to sparge temperature.

 

[vindee]

Just a quick note to back up the question of sparge water vs. grain bed temperature. I just completed batch sparging 10 lbs of grain. After fully draining the first running, I added 4.2 gallons of water measuring 182 degrees. stirred vigorously, and measured the overall temperature as it settled. 167 degrees.

So I think it's possible with a small grain bill that 185-190 degree water at some volume will push the overall temperature of the grain over 170 if you also mash thick and sparge with a higher volume.... BUT, if you use equal runnings, I just don't think it will ever be a problem, and I've never experienced astringency I would attribute to sparge temperature.

If I'm doing a mash that requires 155 deg, I would sparge with 190 degree water and still not hit 170 deg. I have set up my next recipe to sparge with 200 deg water to try and hit 170 at the grain bed. This is using a 52qt. Coleman Extreme and a 13lb grain bill.
Beersmith comes in a bit low for me on sparge water.
I have not experienced astringency either with my mash process.

 

[smyrnaquince]

Then when the wort begins to show grains, I pour water out of big pitcher all over the grains trying to spread water out a bit all over grains ( I never stir....), until water gets about 3 inches or so above grains, (water same temperature as mash water), and repeat then I stop draining when my run off is about 1.010.

I'm new to MLT (been BIAB until now), but I would drain everything that will come out of the mash before adding the sparge water rather than diluting the liquid in the tun. Same with the second sparge.

 

[gozarca2]

Ive only done a few all grains but had no issues staying around 150d grain bed. First 60min soak is water introduced at 168d. Drain that off (lauter, & re-introduce first runnings), and then add more water at about 168d, stir, wait 10 & drain that amount off. First amount is around 3.5g & second water amt is about 4.75 (sparge). get about 6.5g for boil. I use brewtoad & its pretty close for me (9lbs worth of grain). After boiling & adding hops & cooling my last was 1.050. So i think my efficiency is good?