Batch Sparge Question

[bknifefight]

I am new to AG and have 2 batches under my belt. I have a round rubbermade mash tun (from this build: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Converting_a_cooler_to_a_mash_tun) with a SS braid. I also batch sparge.

My efficiency in the first two batches wasn't bad but it wasn't good. I figure it was around 62 or 63%. After discussing things with my homebrew club, I think my issue comes down to the sparge not being hot enough.

I realize that you want the grist to be as close to 170* as possible when sparging. Is there a way to determine how hot my water should be going into the sparge to achieve this? My thinking is that the mash temperature is variable and there is temperature loss while draining. I, obviously, will need to compensate for that, but by how much?

Is there a formula similar to the strike water temp or is this something I will just need to figure out? My thinking is that I will throw in some 180 - 185* water and add cool water to even it out if needed. Sound good?

 

[duckmanco]

My thinking is that I will throw in some 180 - 185* water and add cool water to even it out if needed. Sound good?

That's exactly what I do, no real formula to speak of as generally my mash temps all hover around 149-153, so I use 185-190 degree water for whatever volume of sparge water I've calculated using an online calculator. I usually hit 165-170 maybe 175 (tannin extraction police) and have had really good luck. My usual efficiency from my lhbs's crush is 75 with the following process:

Dough in -> infuse with 1-1.5 gal boiling prior to running of 1st runnings -> equal volume sparge with 185-190 degree water into kettle -> boil.

Also with efficiency, take a look at your crush, you can really crush up the malt when batch sparging with a hose braid setup, I think Denny hits in 80's routinely. I'm good with 70-75 without having to buy and store a mill and bulk grain........yet.

 

[evandena]

I have the same setup you do, but I use a MaltMill. All three of my AG brews so far have been 87% efficiency.
Crush and a good stir have a lot to do with it.

 

[BeerDoctor5]

I have done two all grain batches thus far. The first one was crushed by the online vendor. I didn't measure my preboil OG but my brewhouse (?) efficiency was ~62% (what was in the ferementer). My second all grain I crushed at my LHBS. My mash efficiency was 80% and my brewhouse was 71%. I sparge with 170F water. Personally I'd look at the crush of the grain first.

 

[bknifefight]

I have a grain mill (barley crusher) and have it on the default setting, the crush looks good to me, but maybe I will adjust it a little?

Is there any real reason for the mash out you do in batch sparging? Ive heard (on here, I believe) that it is not necessary.

Also, I was told to sparge twice with half the water. What is the point of this?

 

[TyTanium]

At 62% percent your sparge temp isn't the issue.

For sparging, just get it hot. The difference between 160 and 170 on efficiency is negligible - well within most people's margin of error. You could sparge with cold water and still get 60%.

Mashout not necessary - same point as above. Double batch sparging is theoretically better, but for most people it's not worth the time. You might get 2-3% extra out of it.

I would investigate other issues. Start with crush, mash pH, mash temps, etc.

EDIT: And how are you measuring efficiency? How accurate are your volume measurements? +/- a quart makes a huge difference.

 

[Kate00]

Crush and a good stir have a lot to do with it.

This.

I also add water in the 180 deg. range for my batch sparges. I do a double batch sparge and stir the hell out of it, then let it sit for a few minutes to settle out before vorlauf. I'd say make sure your stirring your dough in and sparges well, and if that doesnt help, its probably the crush.

 

[QuaffableQuips]

Be sure to check that your thermometer can be trusted by measuring the temperature of an ice bath and boiling water. My efficiency improved dramatically when I ditched an untrustworthy thermometer in favor of an accurate one.

 

[bknifefight]

Thanks for the tips, everyone. After finding a nice link (http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/03/28/best-grind-setting-for-grains/) it looks like my crush can be finer.

I am sure to really stir the hell out of it and the mash tun doesn't lose a degree within the hour. I will make sure my thermometer is right though. Is it worth investing in a electronic one? Right now I am using a floating dairy thermometer that I've had forever.

And how are you measuring efficiency? How accurate are your volume measurements? +/- a quart makes a huge difference.

My volume measurements are pretty approximate since the sight glass on my keggle doesn't register until about 4 gallons and I am mashing with less than that. I should work harder to have more accurate readings.

 

[Malticulous]

Kai did a small experiment sparging with cool water and seen no drop in extract. Sparge temps are not really that important.
http://braukaiser.com/lifetype2/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=129&blogId=1

 

[duboman]

http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

Read this about batch sparging from Denny Conn, then pay more attention to your crush, you will find that the quality of the crush will have everything to do with your efficiency, temperatures of the mash have more to do with the way your beer turns out as long as you are within the general ranges but if your crush sucks nothing else matters.

 

[Rhuarc]

Quick question, that link states that you should drain the MT as quickly as your system allows after you have completed the vorlhauf. Everything I read said that it should be very slowly drained. When I did my first AG batch last week I did the slow method. I am using a SS Braid in a rectangular cooler MT.

I got a Brewhouse efficiency of about 62% Would the slow draining contribute to lower efficiency? What benefits are there to a fast draining?

Thanks!

 

[duboman]

The slow drain only pertains to the vorleuf, once done and the grain bed is set. You just drain it out. Slow or fast has nothing to do with efficiency, just avoiding a stuck sparge.

Once I started getting a better crush my efficiency went from 70% up to 79% consistently.

Crush is usually the underlying reason for low efficiency and a better crush is where you should start, just don't get crazy or you wind up with stuck spathes and that's a major PITA!

 

[coypoo]

Slow draining may be referring to the varlouf (mentioned above) or for people fly sparging.

The only reason that hot-hot water is better for sparging is that it is less viscous and allows you to drain a bit faster. I never look at the temp of the water, just get it as hot as I can before I sparge.

As for your efficiencies, as long as you are getting consistent numbers, that is the most important thing. Dont get caught up in this whole game of trying to get like 90% efficiency. I think that efficiencies that high arent great for the beer. Before I got my grain mill I was at 65% everytime, no big deal, just compensated for it with the recipe. Now, with my BC, I'm at 80% and am happy with that. I dont want any higher so I dont mess with the gap on the mill.

Go to Kai's website (braukaiser.com) and read his article on efficiency. There is a spread sheet there where you can enter information and find out where you are losing your efficiency points.

 

[bknifefight]

Here's a question for all of you in regards to crush and who crush your own. When using a drill to power the mill, does speed affect the crush quality? I generally let the drill go full force.

 

[evandena]

Here's a question for all of you in regards to crush and who crush your own. When using a drill to power the mill, does speed affect the crush quality? I generally let the drill go full force.

I have good results with my cordless on the slower setting.

 

[Malticulous]

Too much speed can break up the husks. You don't want it to spin on the grain just to pull it through.

 

[HawksBrewer]

Here's a question for all of you in regards to crush and who crush your own. When using a drill to power the mill, does speed affect the crush quality? I generally let the drill go full force.

YES. Speed does affect the crush quality. I forget which book I read it in, but it has to do w/ the contact time of the husks w/ the roller mills. Thus, a mill w/ larger diameter rollers will allow you to increase the speed while maintaining a consistent crush. Conversely, smaller rollers (diameter, not length) need to be run at a lower speed to get a good crush.

The one time that I let 'er rip on the drill my efficiency went way down, and everything else was held constant. Now I run on the lowest drill setting or hand crank to make sure that proper contact time is maintained.

 

[bknifefight]

Thanks everyone. With all this new info, I am excited for my next brew to see what my numbers come out as!

 

[Denny]

Quick question, that link states that you should drain the MT as quickly as your system allows after you have completed the vorlhauf. Everything I read said that it should be very slowly drained. When I did my first AG batch last week I did the slow method. I am using a SS Braid in a rectangular cooler MT.

I got a Brewhouse efficiency of about 62% Would the slow draining contribute to lower efficiency? What benefits are there to a fast draining?

Thanks!

It's not that you should drain as quickly as your system allows, it's that you can drain quickly. It's an advantage, not a requirement. Runoff speed make no difference to efficiency in batch sparging.

 

[Rhuarc]

It's not that you should drain as quickly as your system allows, it's that you can drain quickly. It's an advantage, not a requirement. Runoff speed make no difference to efficiency in batch sparging.

Thanks for the info! Should save me quite a bit of time on my next batch!