Basket or no basket?

[Dirt_McGirt]

I'm starting to outgrow the 23qt pressure canner I've been using to brew extract and partial BIAB batches, and am shopping around for a new kettle for all grain BIAB. Probably want 13-15 gallons, so I can do an 8 or 10 gallon batch someday.

Is it worth it to buy a kettle bundled with a perforated basket insert for use with the pulley, or is it unnecessary and the grain bag holds the weight of the wet grain just fine?

 

[doug293cz]

I'm starting to outgrow the 23qt pressure canner I've been using to brew extract and partial BIAB batches, and am shopping around for a new kettle for all grain BIAB. Probably want 13-15 gallons, so I can do an 8 or 10 gallon batch someday.

Is it worth it to buy a kettle bundled with a perforated basket insert for use with the pulley, or is it unnecessary and the grain bag holds the weight of the wet grain just fine?

The bag is plenty strong to hold the grains.

I went with a kettle that came with a basket. I used the basket for a few brews, but now just use the bag. Typically there are 2 - 3 gal of dead volume under the basket, and the liquid in that volume doesn't get fully involved in the mash, so you're better off without the dead volume.

However, if you intend to migrate to an electric, recirculating mash system, the basket will keep the bag off of the heating element, help get better recirculation flow, and the continuous mixing due to recirc eliminates the "dead" aspect of the volume under the basket.

Brew on

 

[wilserbrewer]

The basket works well for steaming lobstah, but not needed for basic BIAB. As Doug said above, if you have grand plans for an automated recirc system, that's a horse of a different color.

 

[CascadeOK]

I got an 80 qt (20 gal) stainless steel kettle for about $100
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0085ZNXZ6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

and use a pizza tray with holes in it ($15) and some stainless steel bolts as a stand off (local hardware store)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UBK57C?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00

and a wilser bag he custom made to the dimensions of my pot. I got the $32 version that has custom bag, 2 hop bags and a pully. These are great at keeping all that hop trub contained. Post boil I xfer probably 99.9% to the fermenter.
http://biabbags.webs.com/

I'm very happy with how all 3 work. With the pully I got with my bag I can continue to drip while I'm bringing my pot up to a boil.

I also got a set of silicone gloves ($7) so I can not worry about getting hot wort burns when handling the bag or if you're a squeezer
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QPNHWB6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

This was a better start for me than a $250 kettle and $50 false bottom. I'm all electric with a recirc pump but same setup would work with propane as neither of us wants a burned bag. I went 20 gal because I wanted to be able to do a 10 gal batch with big grain bill, but it is a huge ass pot! They make 60 qt versions too that may be better suited.

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

The bag is plenty strong to hold the grains.

However, if you intend to migrate to an electric, recirculating mash system, the basket will keep the bag off of the heating element, help get better recirculation flow, and the continuous mixing due to recirc eliminates the "dead" aspect of the volume under the basket.

That's really good to know. Looks like most of the better bags have a strength rating too, so that'll help. I don't have any plans to go electric anytime in the near future (I'd probably go natgas first), so it's not a concern.

The basket works well for steaming lobstah,

I'd love to host a crawfish or low country boil next summer, but beer takes precedence!

I got an 80 qt (20 gal) stainless steel kettle for about $100
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0085ZNXZ6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

and use a pizza tray with holes in it ($15) and some stainless steel bolts as a stand off (local hardware store)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UBK57C?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00

and a wilser bag he custom made to the dimensions of my pot. I got the $32 version that has custom bag, 2 hop bags and a pully. These are great at keeping all that hop trub contained. Post boil I xfer probably 99.9% to the fermenter.
http://biabbags.webs.com/

I'm very happy with how all 3 work. With the pully I got with my bag I can continue to drip while I'm bringing my pot up to a boil.

I also got a set of silicone gloves ($7) so I can not worry about getting hot wort burns when handling the bag or if you're a squeezer
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QPNHWB6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

This was a better start for me than a $250 kettle and $50 false bottom. I'm all electric with a recirc pump but same setup would work with propane as neither of us wants a burned bag. I went 20 gal because I wanted to be able to do a 10 gal batch with big grain bill, but it is a huge ass pot! They make 60 qt versions too that may be better suited.

Wow, thanks for all that! I'm thinking of putting the money I'd spend on the basket toward a pot with a ball-valve and/or temp sensor. If not, those Concord pots seem to be a nice economy choice, although I think 16 gal. is the max I'd want to go. The modified pizza tray is a great idea, as are the gloves (I do squeeze just a bit). I'll definitely bookmark this and come back, especially if my current bag is too small for whatever I wind up with.


Thanks for all the feedback, fellas. It helps a ton.

 

[newnick]

I'm a basket user.

 

[Nyalex]

I got an 80 qt (20 gal) stainless steel kettle for about $100
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0085ZNXZ6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

and use a pizza tray with holes in it ($15) and some stainless steel bolts as a stand off (local hardware store)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UBK57C?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00

and a wilser bag he custom made to the dimensions of my pot. I got the $32 version that has custom bag, 2 hop bags and a pully. These are great at keeping all that hop trub contained. Post boil I xfer probably 99.9% to the fermenter.
http://biabbags.webs.com/

I'm very happy with how all 3 work. With the pully I got with my bag I can continue to drip while I'm bringing my pot up to a boil.

Brilliant plan. I'm building an ebiab system so i needed the distance above the element but didn't want to spend another 50+ for a basket, or 200 for a mesh basket. Question about your recirculation: I'm assuming you are pumping it back through your lid. What kind of head/nozzle are you using? What efficiency numbers are you getting?

And sorry for basic questions, but how quickly are you pumping the wort in? Does it just kind of sprinkle on top, or spray it with more force?

Since stirring is helpful with biab, would a whirlpool arm type setup improve things?

 

[RM-MN]

Brilliant plan. I'm building an ebiab system so i needed the distance above the element but didn't want to spend another 50+ for a basket, or 200 for a mesh basket. Question about your recirculation: I'm assuming you are pumping it back through your lid. What kind of head/nozzle are you using? What efficiency numbers are you getting?

And sorry for basic questions, but how quickly are you pumping the wort in? Does it just kind of sprinkle on top, or spray it with more force?

Since stirring is helpful with biab, would a whirlpool arm type setup improve things?

If stirring is so helpful with BIAB, why do I consistently get 85% efficiency with no stirring. I think there is some misinformation here.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

If stirring is so helpful with BIAB, why do I consistently get 85% efficiency with no stirring. I think there is some misinformation here.

70-75% here depending on the size of the grain bill and I don't stir either. I have the Bayou Classic 44 quart pot it came with the basket which I used for only 2 brews and stopped because of dead space and temp differences under the basket. I use this pulley http://www.harborfreight.com/gambrel-and-pulley-hoist-99758.html it was $11 when I bought it. Best $11 I've ever spent.

 

[BeerChef17]

I use a 42qt with a basket and then just the cheap paint strainer bag from home depot. Works like a charm for me. Plus I know the bag isnt on the bottom when I fire back up the propane to mash out

 

[doug293cz]

I use a 42qt with a basket and then just the cheap paint strainer bag from home depot. Works like a charm for me. Plus I know the bag isnt on the bottom when I fire back up the propane to mash out

Why are you bothering with a mash out? What benefit do you think it provides?

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

If stirring is so helpful with BIAB, why do I consistently get 85% efficiency with no stirring. I think there is some misinformation here.

Whether or not stirring during the mash improves efficiency probably depends on the coarseness of the grain crush. With a fine grind, water has no trouble getting to all of the starch to gelatinize it (the rate limiting step) so that the amylase can then do its work. With a coarse crush, it's more difficult for the water to get to the interior of the grits, due to distance and the build up of gelatinized starch and concentrated sugar on the surface of the grits. With a coarse grind, periodic stirring (or continuous recirculation) can break up the surface layers on the grits, facilitating water penetrating the remaining grit structure, thereby speeding up the saccharification process. With a fine grind stirring at mash in and end of mash is usually sufficient.

Brew on

 

[CascadeOK]

What kind of head/nozzle are you using? What efficiency numbers are you getting?

And sorry for basic questions, but how quickly are you pumping the wort in? Does it just kind of sprinkle on top, or spray it with more force?

I got a flexible "loc-line" mash recirc kit. Spray force doesnt mater, you just need consistent temp and enough wort on top so the enzymes can do their job
https://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MashRecirculation
I like it cause I can point it wherever I want

I'm using a chugger pump and I put a ball valve on the output of the pump. You can restrict the output without damaging the pump. (but restricting input to pump you could damage it)

I had an issue with my pump outflow exceeding what came back thru my grain bed and briefly exposed my element during my last brew. After experimenting I found I could clip my bag about 80% of the way around my pot leaving a gap in front of the drain. I aim the flexible sprayer outside the bag into this opening. Now no chance of running my pump dry. The wort still flows into the bag maintaining the level needed on my grain bed.

Efficiency-my LBHS wont double grind or do a fine grind for me, so I bought a cereal killer from aih
http://www.homebrewing.org/Cereal-Killer-Grain-Mill_p_2310.html
Very happy with it in the 2 brews since I started using. Noticible jump in efficiency. I let LBHS grind once, I fine grind when I get home. Less wear on my mill and I get a finer grind (cant recall my gap offhand, its a bit tighter than a credit card).

My eBiab is a 240V system and I also got
https://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Element5500_RIPPLE
and this
https://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ETC4S
Very happy with both. The element is an ULWD element (ultra low watt density) which probably saved my element and maybe batch of wheat beer when I briefly exposed the element. I could smell burning, yet somehow didnt ruin my beer or element.

Brewhardware guy has lots of great stuff. I also bought a flange you solder on the kettle and some camlock quick disconnects.

 

[BeerChef17]

Why are you bothering with a mash out? What benefit do you think it provides?

Brew on

I've just always done it. I'm sure how much it really helps with BIAB but with the increase in solubility of the sugars I figure it cant hurt. Ill have to pull some samples next brew day pre mash out and post mash out and see what I get

 

[doug293cz]

I've just always done it. I'm sure how much it really helps with BIAB but with the increase in solubility of the sugars I figure it cant hurt. Ill have to pull some samples next brew day pre mash out and post mash out and see what I get

You don't need to worry about the solubility of sugars. The solubility limit of maltose in water at 151°F is 66.7°Plato (an SG of about 1.30!) Also, the way mashing works, the sugar is all dissolved in water when it is created, there is never any solid sugar that needs to be dissolved.

If a mash out increases your efficiency, it is because your starch to sugar conversion was not complete during your alloted mash time. You can get more conversion by increasing your mash time, grinding finer and using the same mash time, or a combination of the two. You can test the completion of your mash by measuring the SG of the wort and comparing it to the value in this table for your mash thickness.

Brew on

 

[BeerChef17]

I'm gonna have to read the whole thing later but very interesting. If I increase mash time won't it also effect the body of the beer?

 

[doug293cz]

I'm gonna have to read the whole thing later but very interesting. If I increase mash time won't it also effect the body of the beer?

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the mash temperature. One strategy to combat the potential for thinner body with longer mash times is to mash a few degrees higher.

Brew on

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

So, thinking about this....

The dead space issue with the basket is from supports on the bottom of it, I assume. Since I don't care about going electric, couldn't I simply cut off the supports? I saw someone post an image of an ad-hoc fly sparge system with a perforated plastic bucket to increase efficiency that I'm interested in replicating, and I'm guessing you could only fly sparge with BIAB if you open up the bag and hoist the basket instead....

...Am I making any sense, whatsoever...?

 

[BUCKNUTS]

So, thinking about this....



The dead space issue with the basket is from supports on the bottom of it, I assume. Since I don't care about going electric, couldn't I simply cut off the supports? I saw someone post an image of an ad-hoc fly sparge system with a perforated plastic bucket to increase efficiency that I'm interested in replicating, and I'm guessing you could only fly sparge with BIAB if you open up the bag and hoist the basket instead....



...Am I making any sense, whatsoever...?

I cut the cut the ridge off of the basket so that it sat all way down into the kettle. I still abandoned it because I bought a brew in the bag bag that had loops on it that I can hook my pulley to but if you're going to use the basket I think that cutting off the ridge so that it fits down into the kettle is the way to go.

 

[BeerChef17]

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the mash temperature. One strategy to combat the potential for thinner body with longer mash times is to mash a few degrees higher.

Brew on

Very interesting. Finally got a chance to read the page on efficiency and conversion today. Lots of good info in thete!

 

[sillbeer]

Brilliant plan. I'm building an ebiab system so i needed the distance above the element but didn't want to spend another 50+ for a basket, or 200 for a mesh basket. Question about your recirculation: I'm assuming you are pumping it back through your lid. What kind of head/nozzle are you using? What efficiency numbers are you getting?

And sorry for basic questions, but how quickly are you pumping the wort in? Does it just kind of sprinkle on top, or spray it with more force?

Since stirring is helpful with biab, would a whirlpool arm type setup improve things?

I double crush my grain and I stir it once or twice during the mash. If I don't hit my gravity I go out to 90 minutes and then I do my mash out if I still haven't hit my gravity. I just use a standard sprinkler head from Lowes that screwed onto my T fitting. I can't speak for my efficiency. I had my temperature probe in the T the first couple of batches I brewed but I wasn't maintaining consistent temperatures so I moved it down into the mash.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I'm guessing you could only fly sparge with BIAB if you open up the bag and hoist the basket
...?

I often do a small pour over sparge, akin to fly sparging with just the closed bag hanging on a ratchet pulley and slowly pouring or trickling the water over the top of the bag.

Contrary to what I thought would happen, this works pretty well. I was expecting the sparge water to run over the outside of the bag, but being so porous, the water runs right through the bag and appears to run through the grain nicely, much more than expected.

It works much more effectively than I envisioned.