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Ballantine IPA clone help

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David_Trucks

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So, I'm looking to make a Ballantine IPA, with the recipe based on articles I've read about its resurgence. The problem is, it looks like I need to dry hop it, as well as age it with oak. So should I dry hop, then bulk age with oak? Or would that cause my dry hopping flavor to dissipate before I even try it?

Should I oak age it for a month, then dry hop it? Should I do it at the same time or even soak my chips in vodka, then just throw the vodka in?

Note: I bottle, not keg, so any dry hop/ oak in a keg suggestion isn't going to work.
 
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David_Trucks

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Bump... Nobody has any ideas? I'm thinking now about briefly sanitizing the chips in vodka, then throwing the chips into secondary. Then dry hopping with 3 oz. of hops maybe a couple days later. Then bottling after 5-7 days of that. Anyone have better ideas?
 

C-Rider

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Bump... Nobody has any ideas? I'm thinking now about briefly sanitizing the chips in vodka, then throwing the chips into secondary. Then dry hopping with 3 oz. of hops maybe a couple days later. Then bottling after 5-7 days of that. Anyone have better ideas?
Sorry, no idea at all. But I remember growing up in Brooklyn watching TV and the Ballantine ads saying something like "Make the 3 ring sign and ask the man for Ballantine."
 

TallDan

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Based on what I remember reading, the current beer is not oak aged at all, just filtered through oak (spirals? chips?) in an attempt to replicate a small oak influence that the original Ballantine IPA had. I'd consider just putting oak chips in with the dry hop for 5ish days, a month on chips would probably be too much.

Post your recipe. I'd be interested in what you have.

Also, have you considered emailing someone at Pabst for some help?
 

BigEd

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So, I'm looking to make a Ballantine IPA, with the recipe based on articles I've read about its resurgence. The problem is, it looks like I need to dry hop it, as well as age it with oak. So should I dry hop, then bulk age with oak? Or would that cause my dry hopping flavor to dissipate before I even try it?

Should I oak age it for a month, then dry hop it? Should I do it at the same time or even soak my chips in vodka, then just throw the vodka in?

Note: I bottle, not keg, so any dry hop/ oak in a keg suggestion isn't going to work.
You may want to review the old NB thread on the subject of that beer before you put the wood to it, so to speak.

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=106564&hilit=ballantine+ipa+oak+wood
 
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David_Trucks

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Ah, yes, finally some responses! I've never oak aged before and, to be honest, I'm not sure I like oak flavor in my beer. My plan has been to put in a very mild oak flavor. As for the recipe, here goes:

12 lbs. pale malt
1.5 lbs. Munich
1 lbs. crystal 60L
1 lbs. crystal 40L
1 lb. Flaked maize
.5 lbs. dextrin/carapils
1.5 oz. Magnum (75 min)
1.5 oz. Magnum (60 min)
1 oz. Fuggles (15 min)
1 oz. Fuggles (5 min)
1 oz. cascade (flame out)
1 oz. cascade (dry hop 5-7 days)
2 oz. CTZ (dry hop 5-7 days)
Brief oak age or "oak tea"
80 IBUs
7.2% ABV
1.072 OG

I'm not sure which yeast yet, but probably WLP001. I'm shooting for a slightly more malty and hoppy brew than Ballantine seemed to be. I also changed the hops based on what I have, plus it seems pointless to add as many varieties as it had reportedly had.

I haven't thought about contacting Pabst... That's not a bad idea, but from the articles I've read about the beer (from last summer), they seem to be making it kinda secretive. Any thoughts on the recipe?
 

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Keep us posted on how it turns out. I wouldn't mind doing a batch myself.
 

TallDan

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Take a look over at this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/ballentine-ipa-48302/

Apparently there was a recipe in BYO a while back, looks like post 42 in that thread has the byo recipe.

No idea if contacting Pabst will get you very far or not, but it's worth a shot. I happen to think that the master brewer in charge of Ballantine IPA is a pretty cool guy, but no idea if he or anyone else at Pabst is willing/able to share any recipe details.
 
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David_Trucks

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Take a look over at this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/ballentine-ipa-48302/

Apparently there was a recipe in BYO a while back, looks like post 42 in that thread has the byo recipe.

No idea if contacting Pabst will get you very far or not, but it's worth a shot. I happen to think that the master brewer in charge of Ballantine IPA is a pretty cool guy, but no idea if he or anyone else at Pabst is willing/able to share any recipe details.

I've checked out that thread before. I've actually put some thought and time into this. Interestingly, I see that that post is based on BigEds recipe. So, BigEd, how does my recipe look, in your opinion?
 

dcbw

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Contacting Pabst via their website's form worked for me to get some details on Natty Boh, so it's worth a shot. Maybe I was just lucky though.
 
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David_Trucks

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Take a look over at this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/ballentine-ipa-48302/

Apparently there was a recipe in BYO a while back, looks like post 42 in that thread has the byo recipe.

No idea if contacting Pabst will get you very far or not, but it's worth a shot. I happen to think that the master brewer in charge of Ballantine IPA is a pretty cool guy, but no idea if he or anyone else at Pabst is willing/able to share any recipe details.

I emailed Pabst last night and already got a response this morning! I was told to use 1 oak spiral for 2 days at the end of aging (dry hopping that is, I presume). Since I already have the oak chips, I'll be using those instead, but 2 days seems like a good bench mark. Thanks for the tip, TallDan!

I also forgot to mention that my recipe is for 6 gallons, as I am shooting for at least 5 gallons after hop loss.

Not sure how soon it'll be, but I can't wait to get this one brewing.
 
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David_Trucks

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And of course, thanks to Pabst for the advice. Although I guess they owe it to me for all the PBR I drank in my early years.
 

TallDan

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I emailed Pabst last night and already got a response this morning! I was told to use 1 oak spiral for 2 days at the end of aging (dry hopping that is, I presume). Since I already have the oak chips, I'll be using those instead, but 2 days seems like a good bench mark. Thanks for the tip, TallDan!

I also forgot to mention that my recipe is for 6 gallons, as I am shooting for at least 5 gallons after hop loss.

Not sure how soon it'll be, but I can't wait to get this one brewing.
Awesome! Did you ask for any feedback or info about the rest of the recipe, or just the oak? Any idea if the person who responded is a brewer or some sort of PR person?
 
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David_Trucks

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Wait, hold the phone. I just realized that my original question about sanitizing the chips hasn't been answered. I'm torn between boiling the chips to sanitize and pouring in the "tea" or quickly sanitizing the chips in vodka, then throwing the chips in, sans vodka. Anybody got 2 cents on this?
 
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David_Trucks

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Awesome! Did you ask for any feedback or info about the rest of the recipe, or just the oak? Any idea if the person who responded is a brewer or some sort of PR person?

I didn't share the recipe- I may do that next. It was a product person, but the oak info. was from the brewer, Greg Deuhs. I'm super stoked that they took the time for me.
 

BigEd

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I've checked out that thread before. I've actually put some thought and time into this. Interestingly, I see that that post is based on BigEds recipe. So, BigEd, how does my recipe look, in your opinion?
To establish a reference point I'm an old goat and had tasted the Ballantine IPA back in the 60s. The current rebooted edition is something of a hybrid. There is some base flavor reminiscent of the older brews but a definite and fairly large influence of more modern American hops. I think the new beer uses a lot of Chinook.

That said I'd consider using some of the older style hops for early and middle additions, in particular Cluster and Brewers' Gold. Cascade might be too bright in citrus character here. The new beer is actually quite bitter but it's also broader and mellower in hop character than typical modern American IPAs. I'd back off on the huge CTZ dry hop addition and perhaps use a blend of Chinook and an Old World hop like those Fuggles or even better Kent Goldings. As far as the base recipe goes I'd cut back to one pound of crystal and put that weight into more maize or base malt.
 
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David_Trucks

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To establish a reference point I'm an old goat and had tasted the Ballantine IPA back in the 60s. The current rebooted edition is something of a hybrid. There is some base flavor reminiscent of the older brews but a definite and fairly large influence of more modern American hops. I think the new beer uses a lot of Chinook.



That said I'd consider using some of the older style hops for early and middle additions, in particular Cluster and Brewers' Gold. Cascade might be too bright in citrus character here. The new beer is actually quite bitter but it's also broader and mellower in hop character than typical modern American IPAs. I'd back off on the huge CTZ dry hop addition and perhaps use a blend of Chinook and an Old World hop like those Fuggles or even better Kent Goldings. As far as the base recipe goes I'd cut back to one pound of crystal and put that weight into more maize or base malt.

Ok, cool, thanks. All of what you said makes sense. Since I've never had Ballantine at all, it's been difficult to decide between paying more money to make it as close to what it was (is) or gearing toward a flavor that I like (plus what hops I have on hand already (magnum, cascade, CTZ - can you tell?). I also wasn't sure how much it made sense to add so many different hops for what I perceived to be little reason. But, I'm still relatively new to brewing, so still just feeling my way through and I'm sure that there is a good reason why the hops are what they are. I think I will lower the crystal a smidge and trade out some of the hops with the original. CTZ I've yet to use, just read that it was a good dual purpose hop. I'll scale back on that too.
 
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David_Trucks

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Then again, as I re-read this comment on the beer by the brewer, I'm reminded why I chose that combination of hops to begin with:

“[Old] boiling hops are not readily available,” he said. Instead, he experimented with hops that might have the character of older hops. He tried Galena, a relatively old “modern” cultivar from 1968, but it was too harsh. Cluster “didn’t give the flavor we wanted.” In the end, he used a blend of old classics and newer varieties. “We ended up with Magnum as the main bittering hop. Then we dosed a combination of Columbus, Brewer’s Gold, Fuggles, and then we did use some Cascade.”

So I dunno.
 

dcbw

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When I asked them about Boh they even sent a scaled down pseudo-recipe, direct from the brewer. While I don't drink much PBR I gotta respect Pabst for throwing home brewers a bone, and doing it promptly at that.
 
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David_Trucks

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Well today is finally the day I brew this. It's been a long time coming, so I'm very exited. Here's the final recipe (unless I change something again:))

I'm looking at getting just over 5.5 gallons into the fermenter.

12 lbs. pale malt
1.5 lbs. Munich 10 L
.75 lbs. crystal 60L
.5 lbs. crystal 40L
.4 lbs. dextrin/carapils
.75 lbs. (or was it .5 lb?) corn sugar
1 tsp. gypsum
2 oz. Magnum (FWH)
.5 oz. Magnum (60)
1 oz. CTZ (15)
2 oz. Summit (5)
1 oz. Cascade (FO)
Wyeast 1056 w/ 2 step starter
1 oz. cascade (dry hop)
1 oz. CTZ (dry hop)
2 oz. Boiled oak chips (dry hop)
7.2% ABV
1.072 Target OG
 

Hoppity

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Curious to see the outcome. My dad was an "Ale man" back in the day. As I was trying to acquire the taste for Bud as a teen, I always found his Ballantine to be way too bitter. Youth is wasted on the wrong people. RIP, Dad. Subbed.
 
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David_Trucks

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The only thing I really can't decide is whether to oak first or dry hop first. I'm leaning toward oaking first as I assume that the hop flavor will dissipate quicker than the oak. Plus I don't want a ton of oak.
 
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David_Trucks

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Well. The night got off to a rough start, but in the end, it all worked out. (Except for the small batch grapefruit IPA that we also made, which missed the numbers badly - but that's another story for another thread).

Anyway, we followed my recipe as posted above, aside from the gypsum, which got misplaced. The numbers were spot on and the sample wort tasted great - very sweet and malty with a good bitter balance. Not to mention we were able to use our new 10 gallon kettle and wort chiller, which brought the temp down in 15 minutes or so. And now the waiting begins.
 
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David_Trucks

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After 2 weeks in the primary and gravity of 1.015, we racked to secondary, added about 1/2 cup of oak tea (didn't want to overdo it) and 1 oz. each of CTZ and cascade for dry hops. Tastes great so far and smells unbelievable. The only disappointment is that we lost a lot of beer already to hops, trub, etc., so I'm guessing we'll end up with only 4.5 gallons.
 
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David_Trucks

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Finally bottled this the other day. Aroma is heavy on the citrus and it's crazy bitter - both to be expected. I didn't catch any oak flavor yet, perhaps it'll pop a little after its carbonated or (more likely) I probably didn't add enough. Also, I was surprised that it came in at over 8% ABV, but I'm considering that a good problem. I'm gonna pop the first bottle this weekend to test it out.
 
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David_Trucks

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Finally have a few moments to post about the finished product (not sure anybody is still following along though). After a few weeks of conditioning, the beer tastes great. Definitely a IIPA, very bitter (probably too much for what I was going for), but still well balanced with citrusy notes in the aroma. Next time, I will tone down the bittering additions and add a little more oak. Still a great IPA though. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1429330444.944879.jpg
 
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