Bacteria questions

[HollisBT]

So, I am wanting to dabble on the sour side of things, and I have a few questions about bacterial cultures...

1) How difficult is it to keep a culture of a bacteria alive? I have a few brews that I want to try and make, and I believe that I will need to use combinations of lacto, brett, and pedio to get the results that I want. Knowing that it is going to take a $30 order of these cultures, can I grow starters of them like a yeast and keep them in the fridge so I can make multiple brews out of each package of bacteria? If so, roughly how long can I keep the cultures before they need to be replaced?

2) I know that the level of sour depends on how long you let the bacteria work in the fermenting beer, but how can you stop the acid production once you get to the desired level of sour? Will refrigeration stop acid production? Does bottling starve it of oxygen?

3) How do you check to see whether or not it is sufficiently sour without breaking the pellicle?

Thanks for any input you can offer on these questions, I am eager to try some sour brews!

 

[cervezarara]

I have never tried to culture bacteria, but from what I've read, it is pretty difficult to do. There's a section about culturing pediococcus and other species on the following website: A Liddil Lambic Lesson: The Cult of the Biohazard Lambic Brewers I don't think you need $30 worth of bugs to make a good sour as I have had very good results with Wyeast's blend (3278 for lambic.) I pitched it all in the primary, and supplemented after several months with some sour beer dregs.

From the numerous posts I have read and my own experience, it is pretty hard to get a beer too sour. The opposite is usually the case. This depends largely on your taste, though. If you find at some point that this is getting too sour, you can always pasteurize the beer to stop further souring. Chilling will not, to my knowledge, stop bacterial activity.

You can make a small hole in a pellicle with a wine thief, disturbing it as little as possible, with a good chance of it reforming. These microorganisms are very slow, so i would give your beer several months before checking it.

Here;\'s wishing you much success in your journey to the dark side!

 

[ryane]

1 - Its not very hard, although the longer you want to keep propagating it, the harder it becomes to keep it as a pure strain. Essentially you would continue to build starters, however with souring bacteria you will have to deal with the acid that they produce, you should monitor pH and add chalk to keep things from getting too acidic

2 - This isnt necessarily true, it also depends on the food sources for the bacteria and the conditions that the fermentation take place in. If you were able to get to the level of sourness you like, you could cold crash, fine, rack, add campden, wait 24hrs, rack to bottling bucket, add yeast and bottle. Refrigeration will slow bacteria down, but will not stop fermentation, especially by brett. Brett is notorious in the wine industry for causing problems, and can easily ferment in the 40's. BTW oxygen isnt needed by these bugs, and for the most part should be avoided

3 - Dont worry so much about disturbing the pellicle. If its still actively fermenting it will reform. However, you shouldnt really check on it too often anyway

 

[Calder]

You don't need to spend $30. Since you are just starting to experiment, buy a bug mix/blend and use that (this will ensure you get all the bugs). Pitch the dregs of a couple of sours too, to get some of the bugs the Commercial guys use ...... well, maybe we are starting to approach $30.

Leave for 12 months.

If you want to start a second batch, you could take some beer from the first batch and use that in the second ..... with any more sour dregs you might have (boy; this could get expensive!?!). Then top-up the original beer with some fresh wort for the bugs to work on.

 

[HollisBT]

I have never tried to culture bacteria, but from what I've read, it is pretty difficult to do. There's a section about culturing pediococcus and other species on the following website: A Liddil Lambic Lesson: The Cult of the Biohazard Lambic Brewers I don't think you need $30 worth of bugs to make a good sour as I have had very good results with Wyeast's blend (3278 for lambic.) I pitched it all in the primary, and supplemented after several months with some sour beer dregs.

From the numerous posts I have read and my own experience, it is pretty hard to get a beer too sour. The opposite is usually the case. This depends largely on your taste, though. If you find at some point that this is getting too sour, you can always pasteurize the beer to stop further souring. Chilling will not, to my knowledge, stop bacterial activity.

You can make a small hole in a pellicle with a wine thief, disturbing it as little as possible, with a good chance of it reforming. These microorganisms are very slow, so i would give your beer several months before checking it.

Here;\'s wishing you much success in your journey to the dark side!

Thanks for that link, lots of good information there, definitely bookmarked it

I will have to look into pasteurizing, as that is another topic that I know little about... Thanks for the input

 

[HollisBT]

1 - Its not very hard, although the longer you want to keep propagating it, the harder it becomes to keep it as a pure strain. Essentially you would continue to build starters, however with souring bacteria you will have to deal with the acid that they produce, you should monitor pH and add chalk to keep things from getting too acidic

2 - This isnt necessarily true, it also depends on the food sources for the bacteria and the conditions that the fermentation take place in. If you were able to get to the level of sourness you like, you could cold crash, fine, rack, add campden, wait 24hrs, rack to bottling bucket, add yeast and bottle. Refrigeration will slow bacteria down, but will not stop fermentation, especially by brett. Brett is notorious in the wine industry for causing problems, and can easily ferment in the 40's. BTW oxygen isnt needed by these bugs, and for the most part should be avoided

3 - Dont worry so much about disturbing the pellicle. If its still actively fermenting it will reform. However, you shouldnt really check on it too often anyway

I didn't think about the acid production, that is another good point, thank you.

So there really isn't a way to control the level of sour, outside of limiting the food sources? Or will the campden tab kill the bugs and maintain the acidity already produced?

 

[HollisBT]

You don't need to spend $30. Since you are just starting to experiment, buy a bug mix/blend and use that (this will ensure you get all the bugs). Pitch the dregs of a couple of sours too, to get some of the bugs the Commercial guys use ...... well, maybe we are starting to approach $30.

Leave for 12 months.

If you want to start a second batch, you could take some beer from the first batch and use that in the second ..... with any more sour dregs you might have (boy; this could get expensive!?!). Then top-up the original beer with some fresh wort for the bugs to work on.

I had looked into some of the blends, but I kind of feel like that in order to get the results I am looking for, I might be better off using a dedicated yeast strain and then pitching some bacteria to the secondary.

FWIW the three brews that I was mainly interested in starting off with were a saison, a berliner weisse, and a sour stout (lightly soured, think lion stout or more specifically clutch from new belgium). I am sure that I could get good results from a yeast blend on all three of these beers, but I was kind of interested in learning more about the bacteria, how they work, what exactly is happening, and how to control the results.

Do you think it will really take 12 months to get to the level of sour that I might want for these brews? I was planning on starting them in January, and letting them go for 4-7 months, checking periodically. FWIW I think that I might want the most sour in the saison, which I had planned on pitching lacto, brett, and pedio into...

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

You can get decent to great brett flavor in a beer in six months and you can get some lacto tartness within a few days to weeks from lactobacillus but if you want full on sour, you definitely need pedio in there and that will take more than 4-7 months to reach that sourness, stabilize and round out the flavor.

You might want to pick up a copy of Wild Brews. A couple good blogs to read are: Ryan Brews and The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog.

 

[HollisBT]

You can get decent to great brett flavor in a beer in six months and you can get some lacto tartness within a few days to weeks from lactobacillus but if you want full on sour, you definitely need pedio in there and that will take more than 4-7 months to reach that sourness, stabilize and round out the flavor.

You might want to pick up a copy of Wild Brews. A couple good blogs to read are: Ryan Brews and The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog.

Thanks for those links, those are exactly what I am looking for. I am a book/reading whore lol.

I wouldn't say that I want full on sour in any of the beer styles I have planned, what I do want is a somewhat vague, but present, tartness that is refreshing in hot weather. The berlinner weisse and the saison I want to be the most tart, and even then, I want them to be less tart than a glass of lemonade. I just want it to be noticeable and something that will be refreshing and make you want to keep coming back to it.

 

[Waylit]

How difficult is it to keep a culture of a bacteria alive?!

This article might be helpful...
Maintaining Brett and Lacto Cultures | The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog

 

[Calder]

Thanks for those links, those are exactly what I am looking for. I am a book/reading whore lol.

I wouldn't say that I want full on sour in any of the beer styles I have planned, what I do want is a somewhat vague, but present, tartness that is refreshing in hot weather. The berlinner weisse and the saison I want to be the most tart, and even then, I want them to be less tart than a glass of lemonade. I just want it to be noticeable and something that will be refreshing and make you want to keep coming back to it.

Have you thought of using a pound of acid malt in the mash?

 

[HollisBT]

Have you thought of using a pound of acid malt in the mash?

I haven't gotten as far as recipe composition yet, I'm still just getting my feet wet and learning.

What exactly would acid malt add to the beers profile?

 

[Calder]

I haven't gotten as far as recipe composition yet, I'm still just getting my feet wet and learning.

What exactly would acid malt add to the beers profile?

If you wanted a little sourness and didn't want to wait, you could get some from using some acidulated malt in the mash.

 

[HollisBT]

Hmmmm, that might be a good option for the stout perhaps. I still think that for the berlinner weisse and saison I would like bacteria.