Backyard Brew Shed / Bar

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bkboiler

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Have you thought about putting a glycol chiller outdoors and skipping the cold room? I've seen pro breweries do it that way. Not sure if you already have your Conicals with jackets or coils...
 
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Steven Sinclair

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Have you thought about putting a glycol chiller outdoors and skipping the cold room? I've seen pro breweries do it that way. Not sure if you already have your Conicals with jackets or coils...
Yes, already have the Conicals with integrated heating/cooling systems...for use with existing IceMaster Max 4. However, I have thought about a separate walk-in, but simply don't have the room.
:confused:
 

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I was thinking the taps, which agree should be on a wall of the walk-in, need to also be close to where people would sit and you'd serve the beer. However, if you do move that room and have to walk over to pour a beer, it's really not so bad. It's not a far walk... So if something else really beneficial opens up by moving the walk-in, maybe go for it if the exchange is worth it.

That said - I'm not sure what you'd put between the walk-in and bathroom if you were to move it. So maybe once again never mind.
 

SCfb75

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What about the height of the walk-in? Is it tall enough for a shelf to put the kegs on top of each other? The move the door to the cooler where the taps are on your floor plan opening up the side wall of the walk-in for your brew table?
 
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Steven Sinclair

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What about the height of the walk-in? Is it tall enough for a shelf to put the kegs on top of each other?
The shed will have a monoslope roof. It will be 8' tall in the back and nearly 11' tall in the front, so plenty of height to stack kegs.
 

Toxxyc

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Have you thought about buying a used shipping container and burying it below your shed? Use the downstairs "cellar" then for brewing and fermentation and stuff. Naturally cool, and out of light, and if not in use you just shut the door and serve upstairs.
 
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Steven Sinclair

Steven Sinclair

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Have you thought about buying a used shipping container and burying it below your shed? Use the downstairs "cellar" then for brewing and fermentation and stuff. Naturally cool, and out of light, and if not in use you just shut the door and serve upstairs.
That would be absolutely awesome. Unfortunately, there is simply far too much rock to make that manageable.
:(
 
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archi77

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What is it about the initial drawing you posted that you don't like, or doesn't work? In my day-life, I am an architect, and am willing to throw a few ideas your way (more mind-time than drawing-time, if you will...) but I'd have more questions in order to figure out the puzzle...
 
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Steven Sinclair

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What is it about the initial drawing you posted that you don't like, or doesn't work? In my day-life, I am an architect, and am willing to throw a few ideas your way (more mind-time than drawing-time, if you will...) but I'd have more questions in order to figure out the puzzle...
I guess it comes down to the feeling of having no other alternative than to "cram" all the equipment into what seems to be a ridiculously small space. Being limited to no larger than a specific size of structure also limits the layout. When it comes down to it, just being able to "fit" all the equipment into said space and still have it feel comfortable as opposed to having it feel like a storage unit. Hope that makes sense.
 

shoengine

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An out-out building! I was just perusing the drawing and comparing it to what I have to find room for. I had to give up the idea of a walk in on mine, due to lack of space.
 

rlprafa

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I won't pretend to know your brewing/space needs and budget, but this space looks ridiculously big in my opinion. All you need might be a little bit of reorganizing and reprioritizing.

Here are some things I would consider if this was my setup:

Brewhouse:
- Do you really need a cold liquor tank? Sounds like an overkill, but in case you do, consider one at a different height. Realistically this is something that would probably be an enclosed vessel that you barely touch.
- For the sink, any objections in having it in the other wall? like combining it with your brew table in an L shape? this would give more space for drying stuff. The other wall (the one you have the sink Today) could be used for some dry storage. Or maybe even U shaped, although that might be too much in terms of circulation space.

Walk-in:
- It does look too big for me. This is a place you are getting in and out in a short timespan. Not really somewhere you are spending too much time on. I'd consider taking one ft off from each plane. That might limit you in the future, though.
- Maybe moving the door to the wall close to the bar would be good. That might give you some space to put your fermenters closer to the brewing area.
- Adding casters in the fermenters as well as creating/buying some bases with wheels for the kegs to make sure you go easy on your back when moving stuff around might not be a bad idea.
- Put some shelves in there as well for hop/yeast and other things you need to keep cooled.


Bar area:
- If you move the walk-in door and move the fermenters, you can now remove that partial wall. That will give you a more open space a make it feel bigger.
- This is totally personal preference but I don’t like to feel like I am a server in a bar when I have people for a party. With that said, I’d probably try to make that a somewhat of an open space. There are a few options I can think of to solve that “problem”. L shaped sliding doors, tilt up/up garage door or even roll up doors.

I hope that helps. If not, it's equally ok. Just don't forget to update us in the process. It's gonna look amazing when it's finished, I am sure.

Cheers.
 
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Steven Sinclair

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...this space looks ridiculously big...
I've always found it interesting in how perspective plays a part in the multitude viewing the same thing. Right now, the rig is in the garage, occupying part of a single wall, and there's not enough room. As soon as I thought about the brew shed, I thought I wish I could build it to 16' x 24' so as to be both a brew shed and a really cool pub shed.

Do you really need a cold liquor tank?
So, as far as "NEED" goes, no. I don't need a CLT. And, along those lines, I also don't need a brew shed. :p However, I use the glycol chiller to chill the CLT water (via HERMS coil), then the CLT water to chill the BK (via CFC). This way there's no massive pull on the chiller trying to chill the BK directly.

Adding casters in the fermenters as well as creating/buying some bases with wheels for the kegs to make sure you go easy on your back when moving stuff around might not be a bad idea.
Yes, all my fermenters have casters and I have keg dollies for the kegs (as well as spacers to stack them).

Put some shelves in there as well for hop/yeast and other things you need to keep cooled.
Yes, I have a wire rack that will go in the walk-in, but forgot to put it on the drawing.

This is totally personal preference but I don’t like to feel like I am a server in a bar when I have people for a party.
I actually love being the "host with the most" and if that means I'm the bartender and/or the server and/or taking special orders for kegs of beer, and/or providing brewing lessons and/or whatever else might be needed, well, then to quote one of my favorite actors in one of my favorite movies, "I'm the Dude." ;)

Just don't forget to update us in the process.
Yup. Once I start the build, I'll be documenting it all every step of the way.

Cheers, indeed!!!
 

Phischy

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My walk-in is 8x6. Behind the taps I have industrial shelving for keg storage. I use a 40 gallon cube for cold water, that I pump through the wall to chill my conicals. For lagers, I simply roll them into the cold room, they're insulated with a heater and it works just fine. No need for an expensive chiller when you have a cold water source. I also have wood shelving for bottles. My walls are true 6" thick with spray in closed cell foam to get my R factor right. Remember that you need to insulate the floor, so you'll need a ramp to push things into the cold room. All my stuff is on casters or on a dolly.

Personally, I'd put the door next to your tap wall, and it needs to be a 36" door. Save the rest of your wall space for the shelving, and look at what shelving you can buy and build around that. By moving the door you give yourself another corner outside to install shelving.

3 basin sink is my MOST used piece of brewing equipment with SS shelving above it. I do not have drain boards due to lack of space, but I do wish I had at least one. If you can, plumb your drip tray into your plumbing and if possible, add a glass rinser. I was building into an existing garage so these weren't really options, but it'd be hella cool to have had and functional. You will need a counter top near the sink to store stuff/let it drain. Put it on wheels so everything can be moved about. Restaurant supply stores, or auction locations, you can pick up stainless hardware fairly cheap.

If you go the spray in insulation route, anywhere you plan to put holes through your walls, use rigid insulation. The spray in stuff does not handle tooling and it just crumbles, and to that end, if cutting through, do not use a spade bit, use a hole saw.
 
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Steven Sinclair

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Ok. Ran into a slight bump in the road. Anyone out there have experience in "battling" with their local municipalities as pertains to variances in building code?
 

RufusBrewer

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The strongest card you can play is "grandfathered in." I do not know if that is an option for you. But see if you can play it, do. See if you can submit plans to different people, one might approve when another will reject.

Also an experienced contractor is a good person to have in your corner.

Anyway you can get this categories as "not permanent." Sometimes that can make A difference.
 
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Steven Sinclair

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Yeah...the entire pitch to the "powers that be" was focused on the word, "TEMPORARY," but was still denied. Is it worth it to pursue legally or should I just "build it and they will come" and just hope they'll never come?
:p
 

RufusBrewer

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What was the issue? I am going to guess adding electric trial and plumbing. Are you allowed to build mother-in-law house?

I feel for you. You got the will, the money, the space and wife's approval. All to be shot down by some bureaucratic policy. I need to stop before I go off on one of my political rants.
 
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Steven Sinclair

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Political rants are pretty much the norm nowadays, right?

;)

Aside from that, there are 2 types of buildings I am "authorized" to build. One requires a full-time resident to actually live within, the other does not. However, neither of which allow for floor drains, multi-compartment sinks, or exhaust fans.

What the what? Talk about a lose-lose situation.

Jeez.

Might just be time to move.
 

Toxxyc

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OK so I'm going to ask the question, because it's being done left-right-and-centre over here in South Africa where I stay anyway - what's stopping you from just doing it? Who's going to come inspect your property to see if you're up to code (unless obviously you sell the place or something like that)?

The only thing to worry about is possible code violations when something happens to your main house, like a fire, and if it'll prevent insurance from paying out.
 

RufusBrewer

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If what is between you and a brewing area is no floor drain, sink design and exhaust fan, then build them per the code. Might not be perfect, but it is better than nothing.

Keep something hidden in your back pocket to get around the fan thing. Get final inspection, and then install then the fan. Might be a bit of a kludge, but what ever it takes.
 

superiorsat

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Ok. Ran into a slight bump in the road. Anyone out there have experience in "battling" with their local municipalities as pertains to variances in building code?
Yeah I ran into a wall when I wanted to build mine. Had to pay $100 for a variance board meeting to see if I could build larger than 12'x18' only to be shot down . Asked for 24'x24' after some back and fourth they said no on to the next item on the agenda. I was like how about 14'x24' and they said you had your chance if you want to try again come back next month and pay again which I did. This time I went in with no size listed and told them I wasn't leaving until they could agree on a size I could get that was larger than 12'x 18'. Came up with 14' x 24'. Poured my concrete and a month later the city changed the ordinance due to me ruffling so many feathers over the issue. Now I could put in a building as large as 70 percent of my back yard but already had my concrete poured so I just said to heck with it I'll keep what I got. Build it to code and leave a way to retro fit it later. Run plumbing from the house put a single cheap plastic wash tub sink in that can be swapped later. Leave a capped off trap under the floor where you can easily remove a tile or two and cut through the OSB to access or already have a cut out that can be unscrewed. Exhaust fans can be installed easily enough after the fact or get a steam condenser. A guy could always put in an attic fan if you we looking to vent a small amount of moisture on a not daily basis which is basically what I do in the summer. I pull AC in from 2 windows and have a home rigged attic fan. I have a steam condenser but basically don't use it and I have never developed a mold situation or anything in my attic( 6+ years ). Winter is different I have a home made twin turbine window fan I use and just open the window on the opposite side to create air flow. My garage is all OSB inside and can handle some moisture. When done I run the dehumidifier to just take the dampness out of the air. They are aware of what you want to do in the backyard so I would just factor in that the city inspector might check in on your project. After a bit of time make your adjustments.
 
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matt_m

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We had a really tight bathroom like that in our first house and it was really uncomfortable especially for guests who had to figure out where to stand to not get caught between the toilet and the door. Our current house has a pretty tight half bath but with a pocket door and its a lot more comfortable except for a small percentage of guests who can't figure out how to use the door.
 

Deadalus

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Political rants are pretty much the norm nowadays, right?

;)

Aside from that, there are 2 types of buildings I am "authorized" to build. One requires a full-time resident to actually live within, the other does not. However, neither of which allow for floor drains, multi-compartment sinks, or exhaust fans.

What the what? Talk about a lose-lose situation.

Jeez.

Might just be time to move.
What are the two types of authorized buildings? I'm trying to understand why those 3 particular features are prohibited.
 

Deadalus

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Poking around, I'm guessing your brew area is being classified as a kitchen pushing you towards classification as a dwelling unit? (Preparing food.) With the half bath potentially a complication? Maybe classed either as second dwelling unit and guest house but not as a workshop or misc. structure. Even though you have no plans to use it for a dwelling it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck I mean dwelling?

Further guesses-The multicompartment sink is indicative of food preparation, perhaps the exhaust as well. Still not sure about the floor drain hangup other than they typically fill up. Both mine in my 1940s house are blocked.
 
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Steven Sinclair

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What are the two types of authorized buildings? I'm trying to understand why those 3 particular features are prohibited.
First rule, above all others, floor drains are simply not allowed in any type of residential structure. Aside from that, the two types of structures are...

Accessory Dwelling Unit (ADU)
- Must be used as dwelling
- Full bath allowed
- Only single basin sink allowed
- Sink basin cannot exceed 24-inches
- Exhaust fans not allowed
- 240v power not allowed

Accessory Structure (AS)
- Cannot be used as dwelling
- Half bath or wet bar allowed if owner attests structure will not be used as dwelling
- Only one sink allowed (sink in half bath counts)
- Only single basin sink allowed
- Sink basin cannot exceed 24-inches
- Kitchen not allowed
- Kitchen appliances not allowed
- Exhaust fans not allowed
- 240v power not allowed

There are many more rules, but these are the primary sticking points.
 

Deadalus

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Your new hobby is tye-dying. Rough the brew space in as a laundry room. You'd need to stick to a 30 amp plug for the "dryer". Put in the correct size wire for 50 amps if you want. No foul there. Dryer needs an exhaust. Include a utility sink. No longer a kitchen, a 1/2 bath not typically a problem except perhaps the interior door.
 

Deadalus

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How about a square footage minimum size to apply the rules? Is 12x12 or under subject to permitting?
 
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Steven Sinclair

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Wow that's awful strict, only those two types...bummer.
Yes, very strict. Just don't understand the level of unreasonableness they choose to embrace.

How about a square footage minimum size to apply the rules? Is 12x12 or under subject to permitting?
I could actually build a structure of any reasonable size. The permits come into play when the structure is larger than 200 sqft and/or will have power/water/sewer connections.
 

Deadalus

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Yeah, the 240 restriction precludes various workshop scenarios, the exhaust too. People need hobbies!
 

superiorsat

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Thinking your dream of having a brewpub shed in Mother Russia is not realistic unless you bend the rules and once built you retro fit what you want when they are not looking.
 

tracer bullet

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Agreed, I'd consider installing what is allowed and making that official, even going so far as to closing a permit that way. Pretend you'll stow lawn equipment and chairs in it. Later on, start a small DIY project.

It's against the rules of course, freely admitting that. But I think they are written around something that you are not going for. Your relationship with your neighbors will go a long ways as well, be sure there's no chance of someone complaining later.

No floor drain is OK, no vent is OK, the sink can be added later without a ton of work and same for the wiring, depending of course as mentioned what's run originally. Do keep in mind any inspections will potentially realize a plan to cheat i.e. on the wiring.
 

Jhedrick83

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Ask them if you can't have a floor drain or a sink basin bigger than 24" how will you clean up all the blood?

In all seriousness, why don't you just put in a plywood counter top and set your sink in that, less than 24" bowl obviously. Once inspection has come and gone, get a real counter top and the size sink you want.

Is your floor poured concrete or framed wood? If it is poured concrete, could you have your contractor pour it with the necessary slope for the drain and then pour the middle section (where the drain would go) separately so that after inspection it is easily removed and a floor drain installed? If it is wood, you could go ahead and put in the floor drain and then just cover it with flooring that you can easily come remove later?

For your exhaust fan issue, can you put in a "Skylight" with a diameter roughly the same as the exhaust duct? Then, post inspection swap it for an exhaust fan.

As for the 240v issue, you could ask your contractor to run 110 to the area you need in a conduit in case you need to run different wires for the 240v?
 
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