Avoiding oxidation in the secondary

[gallagherman]

I have heard of filling the secondary with CO2 from kegging equipment before you rack from the primary to empty the carboy of O2. I would like to accomplish the same thing, however I am without keg equipment/CO2 tank, does anyone know any tricks to get all the O2 out?

 

[Yooper]

I've never had co2 available either, so I just did it the old-fashioned way- carefully siphon the beer or wine with the tip at the very bottom of the receiving carboy so that it doesn't splash, and keep it at the bottom so you're basically filling the carboy from the bottom. This will force a little natural co2 (a by-product of fermentation) up to the top and out, blanketing your beer/wine with a covering of co2. Then place the cap and airlock on before moving it. This will minimize any oxygen contact and prevent oxidation.

 

[cd2448]

Yooper has it right - shouldn't be a problem if you siphon carefully. My first brew I made a mess of this siphoning and it gave me some nasty oxidation, but if you just keep that to the minimum possible you will be ok.

 

[user 14523]

I use my bottle of CO2 for more than just dispensing beer. I just racked 6 gallons of cider to secondary, and I never siphoned. After all my tubing and secondary are clean and sanitized, I blow CO2 into the secondary. Nothing fancy here.
Then I used about 3-4 psi CO2 pressure to force the cider (could be beer) to the secondary. I have a 2-hole rubber stopper fitted with a long racking tube and a short stubby tube to deliver CO2. The CO2 line is just stuck onto the tube without a clamp. CO2 is delivered to the top of the primary (carboy) and product moves up the racking tube, through a hose, and into my mostly-CO2-filled secondary. Exposure to oxygen is minimized, and it makes the whole process much less messy.

I also use this setup as a counter-pressure bottling rig.

BTW - get a CO2 tank.

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

An interesting thought...
Propane produces lots of co2 as a byproduct of combustion when burned cleanly(blue flame with yellow tips).
Heat rises.
If a carboy were held upside down and a propane torch held ~near~ the opening, i think it would theoretically push the co2 into the bottle. The real question is though, would it push the oxygen out? <--Anybody have any insight?

Another (probably better)thought...
Yeast also produces co2 as a byproduct of fermentation (NO REALLY GUYS, IT REALLY DOES!) If a "starter" were mixed and dumped into the 2nd a little before racking, it should produce plenty of co2 to displace the o2 without adding any major influence to the beer. I would think in this case, boiling a little corn sugar in water and even racking a small amount of the future inhabitant would work quite well... probably overnight(?) with the air lock on.

What does everyone think? Very little effort to ensure that a long secondary doesn't fall victim to oxidation... Probably worth it.

 

[Chriso]

An interesting thought...
Propane produces lots of co2 as a byproduct of combustion when burned cleanly(blue flame with yellow tips).

I am admittedly not great @ science, but I thought it was carbon monoxide (CO) that was produced by propane flame. I could be wrong.

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

When burned cleanly, propane produces CO2, H2O and organic gases (the part of the flame you can see). See Wiki

 

[Chriso]

Cool! I stand corrected, sorry for the misinformation.

 

[shafferpilot]

I used to have a really tiny acetalene torch for jewelry. It would have been perfect. The problem I see is that there is nowhere for the oxygen to get out of the carboy. So most of the CO2 will flow around the outside of the carboy. It would work better if you could get the flame inside the carboy so it can burn up the oxygen that's inside there. Then just be ready to shut off the gas the second the torch goes out and you can be sure there's no oxygen left. Watch out for thermal shock of the glass, it'll break pretty easily. How about a really small candle?

 

[rabidgerbil]

In all this talk of burning things, lets remember a few things.
1. CO2 is heavier than oxygen. This is why the trick of racking to the bottom of the carboy works. Some CO2 breaks out of suspension and float on top of the beer, but does not float away. If you are trying to get CO2 into a carboy from burning propane, the carboy would need to be UNDER the flame.
2. CO2, and CO2 bottles, are safe, cheap, and easy to use.
3. Propane is more expensive, and can burn down your house or blow it up.

Lets not make things harder than they need to be people.
Either do it the old fashioned way and just rack to the bottom of the carboy, or spend a few bucks and get a CO2 bottle. You will not regret the investment.

 

[BuffaloSabresBrewer]

I heard somewhere that yeast produces CO2 during fermentation. Not quite sure someone check my facts. Put a blow off tub from your airlock of your primary to the bottom of your secondary. Denser CO2 from fermentation sinks to the bottom of the vessel and displaces O2?????????????????? Probably not a perfect plan though.

 

[TexLaw]

What the ___? Over.

If you are thinking about putting flames inside your fermenter or trying to coax CO2 from propane combustion into an upside down carboy, you need to just get a CO2 bottle, regulator, and some hose. I think I would rather balance my carboy on my nose like the Guinness seal than try to hold it over a flame long enough to displace a significant volume of CO2 produced by combustion.

Get a grip, folks. If you don't want to get a CO2 bottle, or you just don't have the cash to do it, just rack carefully. Outgassing and a little extra yeast effort will protect your brew. Folks have been doing it for thousands of years.


TL

 

[shafferpilot]

What the ___? Over.

If you are thinking about putting flames inside your fermenter or trying to coax CO2 from propane combustion into an upside down carboy, you need to just get a CO2 bottle, regulator, and some hose. I think I would rather balance my carboy on my nose like the Guinness seal than try to hold it over a flame long enough to displace a significant volume of CO2 produced by combustion.

Get a grip, folks. If you don't want to get a CO2 bottle, or you just don't have the cash to do it, just rack carefully. Outgassing and a little extra yeast effort will protect your brew. Folks have been doing it for thousands of years.


TL

There's nothin wrong with discussing a little innovation, though. Even if it is a little crazy

 

[shafferpilot]

how about rack to the secondary and then put the carboy under a slight vaccuum to draw CO2 out of suspension? I worked for a foundary a couple years back and when we were making molds using plastic resin, we'd use a vaccuum bell to draw the air pockets out of the resin. I know, another crazy idea, but what did people say to the first guy who wanted to drink old, fermented barley juice?

 

[TexLaw]

There's nothin wrong with discussing a little innovation, though. Even if it is a little crazy

I tend to agree, but I also draw lines fairly conservatively when it comes to fire and glass. I have a little too much experience in both areas, I hate to say.


TL

 

[rabidgerbil]

Not wanting to insult anyone, I think that the ideas that are being thrown out here are creative, for certain, but, they are also fall into a few categories that make them less than practical for the home brewer.

1. overly complicated or expensive
2. dangerous to the brewer and/or his brewery

Kicking the dead horse another time, there are two simple ways to protect against oxidation in the secondary. One is free, and fairly reliable. The other costs a little more, but is a multi-function tool, and is incredibly reliable.

 

[BuffaloSabresBrewer]

I thought using the CO2 from primary at least made sense.

 

[elkdog]

Baking Soda and Vinegar make CO2 when you mix them. What about mixing them in a big pitcher and then "pouring" the CO2 into the fermenter as it collects in the pitcher?

 

[Dr Vorlauf]

I am thinking of using Argon gas to purge the oxygen in the top of the fermenter.

 

[shafferpilot]

There are lots of options in gas mixes at welding supply places like argon, helium, CO2 etc. All have interesting possibilities for purging as well as "carbonating". I guess we'd have to call it "heliumating" or "Argonating" then....

 

[Dr Vorlauf]

There are lots of options in gas mixes at welding supply places like argon, helium, CO2 etc. All have interesting possibilities for purging as well as "carbonating". I guess we'd have to call it "heliumating" or "Argonating" then....

I am going to go with argon. Its a noble gas, completly inert under brewing conditions and has a solubility in water that is very close to oxygen.

Helium would be interesting but it is ligher than air so it could escape easily from purging, although it would be real interesting to try a Heliumating. Would be fun to see what kind of a head you would get.

 

[shafferpilot]

Nothing cooler than a bunch of brutes talking about the wierd new brew in munchkin voices. HA!

 

[Chriso]

Nothing cooler than a bunch of brutes talking about the wierd new brew in munchkin voices. HA!

Hey, that reminds me of the Beck's Helium beer commercial they ran.

 

[kappclark]

"Honey - What are you doing down there ?"

"Argonating !"

 

[AdIn]

Hey, how about another idea. Take a bit of dry ice, drop it in to your carboy and let it evaporate.

From another point - why bother, "filling from the bottom" works just fine.

 

[Kai]

I liked the blow-off tube idea a lot. Sanitise your secondary at the same time as primary, and just do the first day of fermentation with a blow-off tube sticking into your secondary. You can then trust it's full of CO2, and you just cap it and wait 'til racking time.

Of course, I don't do secondaries, and if I did I'd just use the good old filling from the bottom method. But the geek in me likes it a lot.

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

Ya know... I probably wouldn't try burning the O2 off as in my OP. I was just mentioning it to offer ideas to a member asking for them. I think if done properly, it would be safe, effective, and WAY TO COMPLICATED for the benefits.

There is benefit to purging the secondary for any beer that will be aged for an extended time. A quick read of any of the brewing books or this sight will describe the nasty stuff O2 does to beer.

IMO, the blow off tube idea would work so long as you don't have any overflow. I think I'd try my 2nd stated idea(which interestingly enough, nobody commented on):

Pitch a 'starter" of yeast, (wort or dextrose), and boiled/cooled water and wait 24-48 hrs.
Maybe I'll do the math and see if it seems feasible. Anybody else, please feel free to chime in!

 

[Dr Vorlauf]

Ya know... I probably wouldn't try burning the O2 off as in my OP. I was just mentioning it to offer ideas to a member asking for them. I think if done properly, it would be safe, effective, and WAY TO COMPLICATED for the benefits.

There is benefit to purging the secondary for any beer that will be aged for an extended time. A quick read of any of the brewing books or this sight will describe the nasty stuff O2 does to beer.

IMO, the blow off tube idea would work so long as you don't have any overflow. I think I'd try my 2nd stated idea(which interestingly enough, nobody commented on):

Pitch a 'starter" of yeast, (wort or dextrose), and boiled/cooled water and wait 24-48 hrs.
Maybe I'll do the math and see if it seems feasible. Anybody else, please feel free to chime in!

This also is interesting. I must admit that I have sold myself to use my new oxygenator set up to purge the secondary of oxygen after racking by hooking the valve and stone to a tank of Argon. I used to sell additives for the polymer industry that needed zero oxygen and we did something similar with argon. stuff stayed unoxydized forever.