Astringency/overly bitter taste

[mikee]

Hi all,

I just switched from flame to electric brew kettle. The last 4 batches have come out very bitter. I have tasted the wort throughout the process and the astringency/bitter flavor is coming from the boil kettle. I have gone so far as using a BIAB bag to catch any excess grist that could have made it into the BK and came up with a really small amount (probably a 1/4 cup). Typically I vorloft and never had a problem with this, but it is a new mash tun too. Even with the 1/4 cup it came up overly bitter/astringent after the boil. I've been brewing for over 10 years and this has never come up. It is driving my nuts. This is what I know....

Ph of wort before boil is between 5.2 and 5.4 (this I made sure of on batch 5 so no results from that one yet).
Ph of sparge water is below 6
PH of mash is 5.1 - 5.3
The gravity of the tail end of the sparge is above 1.01
my crush is .04 on a roller
I have done this with several different grains and different hops from different vendors.
The temp of my sparge does not go above 168 - in fact the last 2 have been below 165.
the boil has been anywhere between super aggressive and aggressive. This is the one I have been leaning towards as an issue. Batch 6 I turned back the element to keep a moderate boil.

The off flavor is happening before it gets into the fermenter so it is not the yeast or the dry hop.

Has anyone else had this problem. help/suggestions... my beer has become undrinkable!

Thanks

Mike

 

[brewbama]

How do you chill your wort? If a plate chiller is it clean? Have you opened up your BK drain valve? I am leaning towards a bacterial contamination at one (or more) of these points.

The only other thing I can ask is: what water do you use? If tap, has the municipality changed their treatment? Do you build your own water? If so, what calculator do you use? Do you add acid to your mash?

 

[HopHeavy]

I will second a contamination concern, but perhaps earlier, in the mash tun. Bacteria sometimes present in a mash, either from infected grain or tun, can contribute compounds which are not eradicated by the boil or fermentation. The result can be a variety of off flavors which persist through your process. You ought to scrutinize your mash tun as well as your malt source and storage habits as additional potential culprits.

 

[mikee]

Thanks for the replies

I use a counter flow chiller and I always wash all hoses with PBW (rinsed with same temp water) before use. Then I pump the boiling wort through it for 15 min prior to the end of the boil. The same process I have used for years.

I don't always fully clean the BK, but I do scrub the walls with a soft brush and spray it down. All ports are opened inspected and cleaned at this time. The valves are rinsed and then soaked in sanitizer until the next use.

I have tasted the wort from first running to final and it tastes fine and hits the numbers it is suppose to.

I do use tap water. The water is boston water and I have not seen anything to indicate that they have changed anything. The ph has dropped however in the last few months, but that is because of winter probably.

I treat the water first with potassium metabisulphate to remove the chloromine and then i use various brewing salts to modify the water to meet the style of beer I am making. I use brewin water for this. I also did this prior to using the electric brewery and had no problems.

I do add acid malt to some of my recipes if the PH is going to be too high otherwise. For the sparge water I use phosphoric or lactic acid to bring the PH down to under 6.

Malt storage - it is in my basement that stays at a cool 60 degrees most of the year. It is a dry basement as well and I churn through grain fast so nothing is really old either. Again the wort tastes fine just before the boil.

Thanks for the help guys, but I'm still flummoxed. The off flavor is not there when I start my boil, but is there after. I'll be sure to clean the holy heck out of my BK and MT, but I'm not sure that is it.

Ill also taste my wort prior to going into the counter flow chiller next time to rule that out.....

I'm still leaning towards the elements being too hot in the wort and vaporizing some of the hops or something like that, but I have never heard of anyone having this issue.

Mike

 

[jtp137]

I had this issue before but mine showed up after keged and carbonated. I think the bitterness was carbonic acid bite, was a belgian I had at 23psi

 

[TimmyWit]

I had some issues when I switched from fire to electric as well. When I was brewing with propane, I had a false bottom in the kettle. I would whirlpool to chill and as soon as it got to temp, I'd transfer directly into the fermenter and that false bottom would prevent all the unwanted stuff from making its way in the carboy. When I switched to electric I brought my techniques with me and ended up with a few batches I wasn't happy with. As soon as I changed my process to let the trub settle in the kettle and transfer gently with gravity (not the pump), I have been good to go. Check out the brain on this thing:

 

[brewbama]

Mike, Just for giggles, try eliminating the CF chiller from your next batch. Borrow a buddy’s chiller and see if things improve. Either that or run some sort of a chase brush through it. I have the floating dip tubes in my kegs and also soak the kegs in PBW prior to sanitizing. For the heck of it I ran a brush through one once and was appalled at the spooge I got out. From now on, I don’t trust PBW to get everything on its own.

 

[mikee]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the replies. Here are the things I'll be doing with the next batch along with what I already do.

Use RO water and build my water profile from there.
I'll taste the wort right after the boil and then after I use the counter flow chiller.
I'll keep the boil rate lower

Ill let you know how it turns out

Mike

 

[ESBrewer]

Yes, I think the kettle trub contains fatty acids and may bring soapy flavors or tannins bound to protein if it is brought to fermenter in excessive amounts. Could be an infection (probably in the chiller?) as well? Or the new boil equipment extracs more bitterness from the hops and you need to scale down a bit? Or maybe the wort cooling rate is different and late hops or whirlpool type of hops are handled in a new way that leads to more IBUs than previously? Just speculating.

 

[yugga]

I feel your pain! I've been experiencing the exact same issue. I went from stovetop BIAB to an all in one E-BIAB system that I made. It's been very frustrating. Since the switch, all of my beers have had a weird Bitterness that I can only describe as astringency. I work from R.O. and build from there. My beers were better before, when I brewed on the stovetop and made no water adjustments. I wonder if the heating element is the culprit. I have a 5500 watt ULWD element. Could it be causing the astringency? O.P. What kind of heating element do you use?

 

[bschaefer66]

I had a similar issue, not switching from gas to electric, but an overly bitter taste border line astringent with muted hop taste. In my case I think it was the honey malt not playing as nice with my hop choices. Never would have guessed that one but the guys at my LHBS pointed that out. Might not be your issue, but it was mine and drove me nuts

On a side note, if your CFC is cooper you can get a good cleaning after PBW with Star San. The acid does a good job cleaning and sanitizing. Don’t leave it on for more than an hour or it will start dissolving the copper. I usually pump through for 5 min then pump clean water through it afterwards

 

[rmyurick]

Is it possible that you are just getting more out of your hops with a "super-aggressive to aggressive" boil? Astringency is not the same as bitterness. It's more like the feel on your tongue from overly strong tea or red wine.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Astringency is not the same as bitterness. It's more like the feel on your tongue from overly strong tea or red wine.

+1

@mikee, is your wort overly bitter or astringent, or both? When you mentioned switching to an electric BK, is the whole vessel different? Or are you boiling in the same vessel as always, just using electric where it used to be gas fired? If the whole boil kettle is different, what is it made of? Could it be something like manufacturing residue on the kettle or other equipment? If the whole vessel is new, would you be able to try your heating element in the same kettle you used to use?

If it is both true astringency and bitterness, I have experienced this with high hopping rates in combination with high boil pH. You mentioned your sparge water and mash pH, but have you measured your finished wort pH? I am wondering if something is getting leached into your wort from the BK during the boil and causing the pH of your otherwise well acidified wort to increase?

 

[johnny1211]

I had the exact same issue as you describe. After much research, i found a post that helped me. My off flavor was being caused by protein build up on my heating element that was getting burnt. It left a bitter/charred taste. To correct the problem, the post said to put enough water in your BK to cover the element, add an alkaline cleaner to the water, heat to 170 degrees, switch off element and let it soak. I usually let it soak for about an hour. You'll be amazed how much "stuff" you get floating in the water...even if it's "clean."

After i started doing this, i have not had this issue again. Hope it helps.

 

[brewbama]

I had the exact same issue as you describe. After much research, i found a post that helped me. My off flavor was being caused by protein build up on my heating element that was getting burnt. It left a bitter/charred taste. To correct the problem, the post said to put enough water in your BK to cover the element, add an alkaline cleaner to the water, heat to 170 degrees, switch off element and let it soak. I usually let it soak for about an hour. You'll be amazed how much "stuff" you get floating in the water...even if it's "clean."

After i started doing this, i have not had this issue again. Hope it helps.

That’s good info.

 

[Michael Cook]

Did you solve your bad taste issue? I'm having a similar problem, with the last 6 brews now. Mine has a bad after taste, hard to describe, like a heavy bitter taste on exhale of breath. I've eliminated kegging, carbonation, fermentation ingredients and water additions. Thinking it's happening during boil or cooling with ss immersion chiller.