Astringency / harsh character

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

makomachine

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
966
Reaction score
20
Location
Tuttle
Looking for some expert opinions on where to work on my process to fix a flaw I'm getting in my recent beers. I'm getting a harsh bite to the sides of the tongue on my last three beers that I can't pin down. My last beer, a Citra Pale Ale was temperature controlled at 67F with a 2.5L stir plate starter with WLP001. Pure oxygen for 60 seconds and fermentation temperature monitored and controlled closely by thermowell. I've changed a few things in my process, so hard to nail down the cause.

Additinal data points:

I use bottled spring water from Walmart with no water additions.
I mashed at 153 with a protein rest at 131 for 15 min - mash out at 168
OG was 1061 and finished out at 1012
Pitched 8/13, kegged 8/23 - 12psi at 40F

This beer turned out a bit bigger than I intended due to higher efficiency on a new setup. That said, I don't believe it's just 'hot' as it is almost more of an astringency than fusel character. Obviously time will help but trying to perfect my process and feel there is something I could be doing to take my beers to the next level. Water chemistry is something I need to work on but not sure that's the problem here.

My brother, who knows little about beer calls it an alcohol taste and a 'bite'. I also got a bit of this with my Pliny clone as well, so thought it might be hop related but my Oktoberfest has it at a very low level as well. Appreciate any tips to help me on my quest to making better beer!
 
Good questions. Pitching when I reach the yeast strain guideline is a standard practice for me. Try to pitch at target temp when possible - pitched the Citra Pale Ale at 67F. (Edit: found that I pitched at 70F in my notes, as I was having some cooling issues and had to leave for dinner. That said, wouldn't think that would be the problem as it was in a chest freezer and was likely at 67F in an hour or less.)

I'm thinking the water chemistry might be an issue but have always used Walmart spring water. I may take on a water build up from RO on my next batch to see if that solves the problem. Thanks for the link!
 
1. don't use rubbing alcohol to clean any of your equipment
2. do you know what tannins taste like? is it tannins?
3. you are obviously doing all grain?
 
Use starsan and PBW exclusively for all cleaning and sanitation duties.

I'd say it's got a 'tannin twang', which is why I'm leaning towards water chemistry at this point - but can't say that's completely it. The side of the tongue is where it hits me and near the finish of the beer. Dont believe there is anything in my mash process driving it, but I'm not 100% sure on anything at this point.
 
I've been having the same problems with my beer. I'm thinking mine has been due to tannins caused by a rise in the ph of the sparge. I batch sparge by the way. So the American Pale Ale that is in my fermenter right now I closely monitored the Ph all the way through the process. This time around I pre treated all of my water with Phosphoric acid to a Ph of 5.5 room temp. In doing this I managed to keep my Ph at 5.1 to 5.3 (at mash temp) all the way till the end of the sparge. I'm hoping this fixes the astringency problemI have been having. If not I will have to try something else. I will report back and let you guys know if this eliminated my problems.
 
I would think more along the lines of BrewinginCO - that it is more a fermentation byproduct, but it sounds like you have a good setup. I would try to cool the wort further before pitching <65 F and let it come up 67 F.

Are you using different yeasts for your last 3 beers? If so, then I might be skeptical of a fermentation problem. High temps and long sparging times can extract tannins, also higher pH can do this as well. You can pre-treat your sparge water with phosphoric acid to prevent this.
 
I would think more along the lines of BrewinginCO - that it is more a fermentation byproduct, but it sounds like you have a good setup. I would try to cool the wort further before pitching <65 F and let it come up 67 F.

Are you using different yeasts for your last 3 beers? If so, then I might be skeptical of a fermentation problem. High temps and long sparging times can extract tannins, also higher pH can do this as well. You can pre-treat your sparge water with phosphoric acid to prevent this.

I'm guessing it is PH related. Need to pick up a Ph Meter and test the bottled spring water.

Different yeasts for 1 of 3 beers.

WLP001 - Citra pale ale, Pliny Clone
WLP830 - Oktoberfest
 
I've been having the same problems with my beer. I'm thinking mine has been due to tannins caused by a rise in the ph of the sparge. I batch sparge by the way. So the American Pale Ale that is in my fermenter right now I closely monitored the Ph all the way through the process. This time around I pre treated all of my water with Phosphoric acid to a Ph of 5.5 room temp. In doing this I managed to keep my Ph at 5.1 to 5.3 (at mash temp) all the way till the end of the sparge. I'm hoping this fixes the astringency problemI have been having. If not I will have to try something else. I will report back and let you guys know if this eliminated my problems.

Yes, please keep me informed as this is where I am suspecting my problem is at.
 
I'm guessing it is PH related. Need to pick up a Ph Meter and test the bottled spring water.

Different yeasts for 1 of 3 beers.

WLP001 - Citra pale ale, Pliny Clone
WLP830 - Oktoberfest

Yeah, sometimes it is a process of elimination. I recently had flavor problems and traced it back to fermentation temps starting too high (I think).

Try using a different water source next time. Litmus paper (pH paper) works great too and is much cheaper than a meter.

Best of luck
 
Yeah, sometimes it is a process of elimination. I recently had flavor problems and traced it back to fermentation temps starting too high (I think).

Try using a different water source next time. Litmus paper (pH paper) works great too and is much cheaper than a meter.

Best of luck

I'll insure my next beer is pitched colder than target temp prior and insure that's not a factor. I know my Oktoberfest was pitched colder and brought up to 49, but all these things play into it.

I just tested the spring water with test strips I had for another purpose and forgot about it. Looks to be less than 5.5, but these strips measure at higher levels. I know my tap water is extremely alkaline which is why I went to the spring water - alkaline and hard as rocks!
 
That brewing science thread has a lot of info but has my head spinning! I think my first step is to pick up a PH meter and measure my PH on my next beer (IPA) through the mash with some calcium chloride (1tsp), gypsum (1tsp), and some lactic acid on standby.
 
That brewing science thread has a lot of info but has my head spinning! I think my first step is to pick up a PH meter and measure my PH on my next beer (IPA) through the mash with some calcium chloride (1tsp), gypsum (1tsp), and some lactic acid on standby.

If you end up using your tap water, you won't need the gypsum and CaCl since it is hard. I have hard water that I carbon filter, and it works pretty well with no additives.

Lactic or phosphoric acid will both work for bringing down pH in your sparge water.

I always default to John Palmer....this might help: http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html
 
If you end up using your tap water, you won't need the gypsum and CaCl since it is hard. I have hard water that I carbon filter, and it works pretty well with no additives.

Lactic or phosphoric acid will both work for bringing down pH in your sparge water.

I always default to John Palmer....this might help: http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

I was planning on using the spring water as a base, which is soft.
 
I was planning on using the spring water as a base, which is soft.

I figured but "spring water" can be loaded with anything. So I would be hesitant to add more salts to water when it might already be loaded with salts. If you go that route, then I would buy distilled water where at least you know it was somewhat purified.

According to wiki, spring water can have naturally dissolved tannins as well. Not likely your problem, but we can eliminate the water if you use a different source and get the same result. I hate to complicate a process by adding different #hit, often the answer is the simplest one.
 
Unless you know what the mineral profile of the 'spring water' you use for your brewing, don't assume that its going to work any better for all beer styles. You really need to find out what your starting point is before adding minerals or acids. I recommend downloading Bru'n Water to learn more about water and how to properly adjust it for brewing.
 
Sounds like you're on the right track. Fermentation sounds fine to me. Soft wafer is what the primer recommends starting with, then adding salts based on beer type and acid to control pH. My first beer made following the primer is the primary now. But I have had astringency problems in the past, especially on lighter beers.

If you have questions regarding the primer, there is a Q&A thread in that forum as well.
 
Just got back and read through the primer again and will use RO bottled water on my next batch (IPA) with the two additions and PH monitoring. I want to try a baseline and that water primer is a great way to start. If I use RO and build off of those instructions, it would seem it would clearly determine if water chemistry was the problem. If that happens I can refine from there - if not, I've got to figure out the next course of action!

Thanks for everyone's input. I'm going to be looking into the Bru'n Water as well but believe the primer gave me a place to start. When I think about it, it's more pronounced on my hoppier beers - not enough of a sample to say that's for certain or not though.
 
The "sides of the tongue astringency" immediately makes me think of early signs of oxidation. Severe oxidation is described as "wet cardboard" but before that it presents as a funny astringency on the sides of the tongue only. As it gets more mature, you may notice a "sherry" like taste which is a sign of oxidation as well.

Could oxidation be a possibility? I wouldn't rule out water chemistry either, but that's the first thing that comes to my mind.
 
The "sides of the tongue astringency" immediately makes me think of early signs of oxidation. Severe oxidation is described as "wet cardboard" but before that it presents as a funny astringency on the sides of the tongue only. As it gets more mature, you may notice a "sherry" like taste which is a sign of oxidation as well.

Could oxidation be a possibility? I wouldn't rule out water chemistry either, but that's the first thing that comes to my mind.

The Pliny clone is oxidized due to some syphoning problems. The Oktoberfest and this latest beer were handled with a lot of care given that recent issue. Single stage fermentation and clean syphon in CO2 purged keg - so don't think that was a factor.
 
How mush husk matter does it take to get tannin off flavors in the finished product? This is the only other factor that comes in mind as a potential source of astringency. My new Speidel Brewmaster is like BIAB with constant recirculation and some screens. I've noticed more grain matter in my beers than with my previous cooler setup, post boil, and wondering if that might not also be a factor. It's a small amount, we are talking a teaspoon full maybe, but it's something that came to me while brainstorming this further last night. I'm still thinking water chemistry is the key, but wanted to bounce this out to everyone as well.
 
How mush husk matter does it take to get tannin off flavors in the finished product?

I think your problem most likely is occurring with extraction from the grain bed. It doesn't make much sense to me that bottled water would be the cause of harshness. Bottled water may not make beer as good as perfectly built water for each recipe, but I doubt it would be as noticeable as what you are describing. I would concentrate more on the grain bed. Is your Speidel a no sparge machine? Are you sparging to much? Are you doing a mash out? If it's a BIAB, try removing the grain before raising to mash out temp and go straight to a boil.
 
I think your problem most likely is occurring with extraction from the grain bed. It doesn't make much sense to me that bottled water would be the cause of harshness. Bottled water may not make beer as good as perfectly built water for each recipe, but I doubt it would be as noticeable as what you are describing. I would concentrate more on the grain bed. Is your Speidel a no sparge machine? Are you sparging to much? Are you doing a mash out? If it's a BIAB, try removing the grain before raising to mash out temp and go straight to a boil.

It recirculates through the mash and then I do a small Sparge of a ~1.5 gallons to rinse the grains. I mash out at 168F for 15 min normally in the last phase.

My dilemma is that my Oktoberfest exhibits the same problem and it was the last beer on my cooler setup. This is what has me thinking it's tied to water chemistry.
 
How much did the problem beers attenuate? Over attenuation could lead to harshness. Are you friends with any local beer judges or part of a club? It might be worth while to have them try both the problem beers and bounce ideas off each other. What are the other brewers doing in your local area with their brewing water? (ie, RO, treatments, well water, etc.) Living in west Tx, I understand having crappy ground water to brew with, but with bottled water that has a low TDS count, makes me think its something else.
If I were in your situation, I would try a brew with no mash out and RO water. Where do you get your grains from? Are they old? I'm just trying to spit ball ideas at you, hoping that some help.
 
i've been told that rubbing alcohol sometimes contains additives that taste bad. the additives are added intentionally to prevent people from attempting to drink it.
 
Back
Top